I'm not necessarily AFRAID of the hybrid, but I'm not sold on them either - gas prices would need to go pretty high for you to ever make up the cost difference.

 

The Hybrid would actually be 1-2k cheaper than a normal XLE 4cyl in my area. Just not in any demand. I am just concerned with additional cost of ownership due to the extra systems and future value. I am sure gas will go back up its just a matter of time. And if gas does not go back up you can all thank me for buying a hybrid and keeping the price of gas down!!!!

 

It is really somewhat of a personality/opinion thing ...

I looked at a Prius C2, but not a TCH, so most of my comments are based on that.

The battery packs have a 10-year/100K warranty now (at least new, not sure on CPO) and there are moderately inexpensive aftermarket replacements now - I think they are down to around $1300 - but after 10-years, that is a high-percentage of the value.

Pros:
- The motor only runs MAYBE 1/3 of the time - so an ICE in a traditional Camry that might run for 200K miles might be 600K in a TCH before it has equivalent wear in a TCH.
- A lot of the COMMON failure points in a ICE just don't exist is a TCH - no alternator, not sure if there is a radiator ...

Cons:
- Less people familiar with working on them.
- Some maintenance things that you take for granted in an ICE are complicated in a hybrid - for example, bleeding the brakes requires a computer algorithm at the dealer rather than just opening a bleed screw and pumping the pedal ...

Future value I would think can only increase if gas prices go up - the con is if gas prices don't significantly increase and newer technology improves (if a new ICE Corolla in 2025 gets better mileage than your 2014 TCH ...)

 

If I could find two 2012 Camry's in similar condition with the hybrid 1-2k cheaper, I'd go with the hybrid in a second.

 

Do you guys know of people that have these Hybrids with over 200k and what do they think of their cars?? Thanks

 

Not sure that is a fair question either.

Personally, I remember when cars were pretty well worn out at 100K miles.

Nowadays, I would expect most ANY car to go 150K miles without much trouble and a lot of them to go 200-250K.

But there are a fair number of ICE Toyota's with some type of major issue (head bolts, for example) before 100K miles.

And Ford has had trouble with the DCT transmission, but there are some driving fine with over 100K miles.

So - your used TCH or regular TC might or might not go for 200-250K miles regardless.

 

I don't know of Camry owners , but many Prius owners have that mileage and report happy owners.
Same hybrid system.

 

Thanks!!

 

I always buy my cars for the highest city mpg. This was back when I was living and working near Dallas. My first toyota was the '94 Corolla, with automatic. The epa shows it at 27 city/ 34 highway with it's little 105 hp engine. I never owned such a quality car after driving many GM cars for years. The GM's would have enough problems that I would trade for a new one after 85,000 miles. This '94 Corolla went 185,000 with the brakes replaced once, a new starter at 105K including a new timing belt.

Not only that, this same car got 36 to 39 combined mpg driving the downtown streets and freeways their in dallas. Not bad for a car where I had to run the AC during their hot summers. I will add, I always used Chevron regular gas with Techron in it and I always used michelen tires same as I did on the other 3 toyotas I had later bought.

I talked to the lady that bought this car about 5 years ago. She said it now has over 300,000 miles and her daughter was using it in Albuquerque to drive to collage in. I did make her a list when I sold her husband the car. To stay with a top-tier gas like chevron and what weight oil to use. I had put new michelin tires on it and mentioned they should have them rotated and balanced ever 5000 miles including a oil/ filter change.

check this out..

Toyota Camry:

4-cyl 178 hp 6-speed auto 25 city, 28 comb, 35 highway

6-cyl 268 hp 6-speed auto 21 city, 25 comb, 30 highway (in my opinion 268 hp is overkill hp you will never need)

Toyota TCH:

Regular TCH, variable tranny, 200 hp 43 city, 41 comb, 39 highway (156 engine + 44 EV motor = 200 hp)

TCH XLE, variable tranny, 200 hp, 40 city, 40 comb, 38 highway

These engines all run on regular grade gas. The 200 hp TCH with plenty of power will sit you in the seat if you press off the ECO button.

I bought a 2007 TCH and loved it. I traded up to the all new 2012 TCh when it came out. I was always a little jealous of the regular TCH getting a few more mpg than the nicer XLE. I bought the XLE and found if I slowed down my mpg would then increase big time. I have always got around 50 to 52 mpg combined on both year cars. I do live in the high desert of Southern New Mexico near Alamogordo. The elevation here is around 4000 feet and it's usually very dry especially during the summer. I have found the dry air and very little wind helps my mpg plus my slower way of driving so the EV will come on more often.

I don't advice anyone to try driving slow on any busy highway or in the heavy populated cities. Traffic where I live it like driving back in the 70's. I always used the cruise control even as low as 25 mph out here on the 2-mile rough country road to our house.

Some of the advances I can remember on the 2012 TCH is the engine includes a lifetime timing chain. The water pump is a variable-electric to better control the engine temp. The old pump is engine driven variable to improve mpg and better lube the valve-train when you first start your engine or after it auto shuts down while driving. The valves are opened by roller-rockers to reduce friction. The long lasting valve-springs are just strong enough (less friction) to allow the engine to reach just above it's maximum rpm which also helps the mpg.

The aluminum engine uses special sleeves and pistons that run cooler. The advantage here is they can run much tighter piston clearance for long lasting compression, mpg and performance boost over the life of the engine.

The electric steering and braking was improved over the previous models. The traction battery for the '12 on up was made in America by Toyota and it's amperage was also increased. The other traction battery improvements was this new battery has better internal airflow thus runs a little cooler. The air intake for the traction battery fan was moved from behind the rear seat, rear window to the side of the left rear seat to intake cooler air.

The rear seat was moved back some to allow for more knee room. Lots of other '12 TCH improvements I can't remember. I will say I just do not remember anyone having any engine problems with their TCH. The variable transmission is the greatest thing ever. It never gives trouble that I know of and it's just a few gears spinning along with the engine, axles and motor/generators and is fully variable.

The transmission houses two very high quality motor/generators. MG1 and MG2. MG2 is the more powerful one and propels the car and turns into a generator when you coast or press the brakes. Once you get down to about 10 mph then it auto switches to the physical brakes till the car stops. Many TCH owners report very little physical brake wear on the TCH even at 100k to 124k miles.

MG1 is used for backing the car up and is usually charging the traction battery continuously at a low rate. It may be used for forward power but I don't recall reading that. Using Consumer Reports auto magazine from 2007 and have compared the TCH to the Camry engine only version. The TCH each year gets the higher marks for it's quality.

The '12 TCH and the earlier models use 0W-20 oil which being thin improves the mpg and gets up into the engine quicker for less friction. The 2012 XLE offered two versions of navigation. The 7" touchscreen was the deluxe one that had more buttons on one side than the 6" screen. You can see the difference by using goggle images. I think the 7" touch-screen navigation was only offered with the leather trim seats.

They may be other improvements to the '12 TCH, if I find any I will add to this post.

whitesands

 

Also - if you are new to hybrids - something that might surprise you (it surprised me when I was looking) is the hybrid actually advertises higher MPG in city than it does in highway driving. In the city is can accelerate with the electric motor and charge up when braking whereas on the highway it needs the ICE more to maintain speed and climb hills.

 

Hdeter, you can not have proper answer if you do not provide answers for these questions:
What state do you live in
What is terrain you drive on
What is your normal commute in miles
What is city to HWY ratio on your commute.

Also, be very careful with what Whitesands says. Guy is great and gets amazing mileage. He's also being known to local police for driving excessively slow and by no means should be considered an average Camry Hybrid mpg representative.
Also, you can go to say Fuelly or mpg.gov and check on other hybrid owners stats. Look at Fuelly sigs here.
There are quite a few folks here that passed 200 000 miles mark on their TCHs.

 

 

I have to 2nd what ukrkoz asked.


What is terrain you drive on
What is your normal commute in miles
What is city to HWY ratio on your commute.


If you mainly do high speed highway driving (50MPH+) then the Hybrid isn't going to save you much gas.
If you mainly drive short trips, your gas savings won't be as much. The Hybrid requires about 2-3 miles before it warms up and starts getting better mileage. I only average around 34MPG in my XLE Hybrid due to my short 6 mile, all city, commute. Still, it's a lot better then the 18MPG I used to get out of my 2002 4 cyl. Camry.


If I could get the Hybrid for less than the 4cyl, then I would go with the Hybrid.


Pluses for the Hybrid over the 4cyl.
1. Better mileage, especially in town or slow freeway traffic.
2. More power (200HP instead of 174HP)
3. Brakes last longer since the electric motor is used for some of the braking.
4. More headroom (1") in the base XLE Hybrid since it doesn't have a standard sunroof like the 4 cyl.
(this was actually one of my main reasons for going with the hybrid. If they had offered the 4 cyl XLE without
the sunroof, I likely would have just bought the 4 cyl. as it will likely take me over 8 years at the current gas
prices to break even with the extra $3,000 the hybrid cost)
5. Less wear and tear on the motor (ICE) in city driving since it shuts of at lights.
6. No belts to replace
7. Really nice when you are sitting in a parking lot waiting for someone on a hot day. You can run the air, and the ICE will be off most the time.


Pluses for the 4 cyl over the Hybrid.
1. Usually cheaper.
2. Larger trunk (no batteries taking up space)
3. Simpler repairs since it is a standard ICE
4. If something goes wrong on the Hybrid, repairs are likely to be more expensive since most mechanics don't work on them.
5. Possible battery failure with high mileage. Some Prius have over 200,000 miles on the original battery, it's not too much of a concern. Also there are 3rd parties that repair or rebuild the batteries for a much more reasonable price.




Also check your insurance cost. Some places/company will charge more for a Hybrid.

 

If you mainly drive short trips, your gas savings won't be as much. The Hybrid requires about 2-3 miles before it warms up and starts getting better mileage. I only average around 34MPG in my XLE Hybrid due to my short 6 mile, all city, commute. Still, it's a lot better then the 18MPG I used to get out of my 2002 4 cyl. Camry.

Even in a short commute a Hybrid can perform well, but it takes a bit of simple math to see this. So let's take a short 6 mile commute where the hybrid get 34 mpg and the 4 cyl. gets 18 mpg, the 4 cyl. uses 1.88X more fuel. (0.333 gal. vs 0.176 gal. for hybrid). Note:Fuel used = mpg/miles

Now take a 15 mile commute where the hybrid gets 42 mpg and the 4 cyl. gets 26 mpg, the 4 cyl. now uses 1.61X more fuel. (0.577 gal. vs 0.357 gal. for hybrid)

People often forget that non-hybrids have terrible mpg on short trips but deceivingly doesn't seem as bad when using mpg as the units of measurement. If you do the calculations dropping from 12 mpg to 10 mpg equates to the same amount of extra fuel used as dropping from 60 mpg to 30 mpg, but most people would think the latter is worse. (This is not a typo, do the math)

So 40 mpg dropping to 35 mpg (-12.5%) is not nearly as bad as 24 mpg dropping to 21 mpg (-12.5%) even though the % drop is the same. Dropping 24 mpg to 21 mpg equates 1.66X more fuel than dropping from 40 mpg to 35 mpg. That's why % drop is not apple to apples comparison.

 

Take Fuelly with a grain of salt also - http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/focus/2002?engineconfig_id=13&bodytype_id=&submodel_id=60 - My 2002 Focus has gotten about 23.5 MPG combined over 153,000 miles. I don't floor it (shift between 3,000 and 4000 RPM, ATX), and don't drive like a granny either - but the average on fuelly is something like 27 for the same configuration. It's only 3.5 MPG, but that is significant.

 

Get a pen and paper and put all pros and cons of the TCH and ICE powered Camry on top of the page. Then calculate how much you'll spend on a car and fuel for a ICE and TCH over the next 200K. Don't forget about maintenance, possible issues and resale and see the answer at the bottom of the page.
IMO unless you do tons and tons of city driving, dealing with traffics daily and really set on Hybrid cuz of green technology, you better get an ICE Camry: it's cheaper, has better resale percentage vs the original price, any corner shop can take care of it and if you'll be gentle it would easily deliver mid - high 20's city and high 30's-low 40's HWY MPG and sure can make it to 200+K without replacement battery.
Another thing to consider is constantly improving technology: most likely in 10 years max your technologically advanced hybrid by today's standards will be less powerful and less economical than an average new mid size and mid priced sedan.
I have a buddy that have 13' TCH and he got it for one reason only- better city MPG, but he is getting paid for his driving based on 20 MPG and thanks to his 37-38 MPG makes about $200 every month which almost covers his monthly payments. Also he is not planning to keep it 10+ years and was planning to replace his car in 2016, but due to the 2015 refresh decided to keep it till 2017. In any case he is making money on his TCH and planning to replace it before 100K to avoid any potential issues.

 

you better get an ICE Camry ... and sure can make it to 200+K without replacement battery.

I've driven Fords, but my Focus is only 150K miles and is on it's 3rd or 4th battery - I think very few ICE cars will make it more than 7-years without a replacement battery ... >

I know what you meant - just having fun ...

 

Thanks for all the replies.

We live in Southern Indiana out in the country.

If my wife drives she drives about 20 miles each way to and from work. most roads 45-55 mph stop signs or stop lights every 4 miles or so.

If I drive its more like 7 mile trips 6 times per day to pick up kids at school and more if sports that day. Same streets just shorter distance.

I think I have decided on the regular camry. I believe the Hybrid will be just as dependable as the non Hybrid, But the future value is going to be a killer on the Hybrid. To be safe I believe I need to stay with what has always worked for me.

Thanks

 

With that drive cycle, a TCH should do upper 40's in warm weather, low 40's in cold. The school pick-up and drop-off is where the TCH will shine over the ICE-only version - the ICE-only car will sit there wasting fuel and idling, while the TCH will shut off the ICE and go all-electric. In that cycle, my '08 loses 15% compared to the slow-and-steady drive cycle - our other vehicle which is ICE-only loses 50%.

As to resale - it all depends on what fuel prices look like when you try to sell it. If fuel prices are relatively low, it will take a hit as few folks are willing to pay as much of a premium. If fuel prices spike, you'll easily be able to command a premium. A TCH is a much more compelling value proposition at $4/gal gasoline than at $2.

Couple of other items - the ICE-only version has an annoying (to me, at least) 4 cylinder tingle at idle in crawl-and-go traffic, particularly as it ages. The TCH runs the ICE at engine speeds that doesn't produce that tingle. To me, that makes a major difference as I do a lot of crawl-and-go in the school line. Also, the TCH will likely have "lifetime" brake pads if you grease the slider pins every 2-3 years - majority of routine braking is done by regen, so brake pad wear is negligible. In your drive cycle brakes won't get much of a workout on the ICE-only car either - but brake wear will easily be double that of the TCH. The 'at risk' components on the ICE_only car include the transmission - which is relatively weak (compared to transmissions Toyota used to put in the older Camry) The TCH PSD doesn't have wear items like clutches - as long as the seals work and the fluid is clean, there is no built-in wear item.

 

Actually, I know IN as I worked there for a year.
Your commute is ideal for a hybrid. 40mph is about the best cruising speed and on IN backroads you will encounter very little traffic.
Winters are not that harsh, for mpg to drop down significantly.
And it's mostly planes. Perfect.
I'd recommend TCH hands down. Toyota Camry Hybrid. Find one made in Japan.

 

This is just my opinion, but I think people who dismiss the hybrids look at it from a wrong perspective. Consider that your ICE only comes with a 60,000 mile warranty. The hybrid part of the car comes with 100,000 mile warranty. I realize we're talking about battery components, but if you don't expect your engine to die after 200,000 miles with a shorter warranty, why would you expect the hybrid portion to? Toyota doesn't offer these warranties expecting to lose money, they are essentially giving you something that costs them nothing.

And as mentioned before, you are splitting the miles up between two different power trains so although your odometer says 200-250,000 miles, only a portion of those miles have been placed on either power train. Also consider that the hybrid helps to reduce load on the ICE so typically you aren't working it as hard.

 

His main advantage is relativity slow speeds, open straight roads, level terrian, lack of traffic or city driving, and ruarl area. No very cold weather. This is ideal for a hybrid.

 

with today's gas prices it doesn't make sense for a hybrid (that's why resale value is low) since it's a used car, all the fuel savings could go into fixing the electronics related to the hybrid system if things could go wrong (especially when keeping the car at high miles) can't just go to a corner shop to have the electronics fix, need a stealership or a specialized shop for this. we all know that this issue happens rarely since they are reliable anyway, but the fact is.. the hybrid battery doesn't last a lifetime, at some point it needs to be replaced. the older it gets the less efficient it will be and it will be consuming gas frequently.


last gas price I saw in my area was $2.01 and if you go out of the city it was $1.98/gal, was surprised to fill up the tank for less than $30.

 

Current low oil price is caused by political fight against Russia. One thing is guaranteed - low oil prices or any low prices will not last long. Never did. never will. It is ideal time to look into the future and buy hybrid now. As when prices jump back into $4, hybrid prices will jump up too, but it'll be too late.

 

any hybrid car salesman will say that as if they know when it will go up. it's a question of "IF and WHEN", nobody can predict. when it hovered around $4 to $5 , did it stay that long 'forever'? even when its resale goes up, your hybrid is aging and needs new components, do you think the price for those components will be cheaper by then?

 

All of this is true. Right now used pick up truck prices are higher due to low gas prices. When gas prices go back up, used hybrid and subcompact car prices go back up.

 

Enjoying our 2012 TCH

Recently replaced a 2002 Camry LE with 260k miles with a 2012 TCH XLE with 22k miles. I've put just under 3k miles on the 2012 TCH and am loving every minute of it. It is unbelievably quiet, and has great features as an XLE. Mine came with a sunroof, backup camera (should be mandatory IMO), and the smaller radio screen. The stereo is pretty impressive to me. Moving up from a 2002, I mainly stream audio from my phone to the stereo (what a change from a 2002 model!).

Buying used, the price difference between an ICE and hybrid was a couple thousand or so -- just right for me to try my first hybrid. For my drives, I'm getting ~43 MPG per fill-up according to the Camry computer. My commute is around 45-minutes, mainly stop-and-go with about 10-minutes of highway thrown in.


As far as the 2002 Camry, I gave it to my stepson as he just got his driver's license. I'd drive it across the USA tomorrow with no hesitation, so long as I had a little spare oil along for the ride.... Still solid.

 

Haven't noticed any battery degradation on my '12 TCH XLE. Still 42 mpg highway at 120,000 miles. No other mechanical degradation either that I can discern. Great road car for knocking out the miles - one of the things I like is the smoothness of the car at speed when driving hilly terrain. The cruise control combined with CVT keeps the car at precise speed going uphill with no engine roar or gear changes and it keeps speed downhill by recharging.

 

For starters, it's a dead link.
Secondly, hybrids are ever developing. Well, sort of, as now they start going back to the original idea of Lohner Porsche, when small engine was spinning generator, that one, in its turn, charging the battery. And they start going for more motors and much more powerful ones.
Jaguar had a terrific car like this, with close to 800 hp total and motor in each wheel.
I wouldn't call it completely dead future, as in many lifetimes it will take to get to infrastructure functional enough for electric vehicles. Or hydrogen ones.

 

Yeah, but you and I should both know, that this government ain't no USSR one, to do something like this. Government is owned by corporations and corporations care only about profit. So it will be slow change. As far as presses and dies made 30 years back still make money, they will keep using them.
I want a hybrid with a small diesel charging battery continuously and two electric motors, one per each end, like they had in electric Mercedes supercar. I'll be happy with that.
No, they are not lazy. Or non creative. They are simply run by number crunchers. That's it.