Hello and welcome to the forum 🙂

The well respected The Car Care Nut says not to at such high mileage or it could lead to problems...

 

Well crud. Even if the fluid isn’t burnt? I haven’t checked it, yet, (it sucks there’s no dipstick), but was thinking about letting a little flow out - to see the condition of it. Is this a bad idea? I don’t want to hurt anything, but I’m also curious as to how bad it is.

How do I know if I need to add any fluid?

Any other fluids that I should change? What other maintenance items should be on my list?

I need this car to last me as long as possible. I’m kicking myself right now for my ignorance.

 

This crazy guy says not to also

 

The transmission has to be at temperature for some fluid to come out of the overflow tube so you can get a small sample. Watch this video

• Engine oil
• Transmission fluid
• Brake fluid
• Power steering fluid (probably n/a for this vehicle)
• Engine coolant
• Engine air filter
• Check cabin filter
• Check brake pads and rotors
• Battery fluid level if removable caps.
• Battery and alternator voltage and health. Check terminals for corrosion.
• Inspect the CV boots for tears and leakage
• Inspect the exhaust system and look for any fluid leaks while under the car
• Check tire pressure and wear and rotate
• Wiper blades inspection

Are maintenence items I can think of. Check the Owner's Manual maintenance section.

 

The transmission has to be at temperature for some fluid to come out of the overflow tube so you can get a small sample. Watch this video

• Engine oil
• Transmission fluid
• Brake fluid
• Power steering fluid (probably n/a for this vehicle)
• Engine coolant
• Engine air filter
• Check cabin filter
• Check brake pads and rotors
• Battery fluid level if removable caps.
• Battery and alternator voltage and health. Check terminals for corrosion.
• Inspect the CV boots for tears and leakage
• Inspect the exhaust system and look for any fluid leaks while under the car
• Check tire pressure and wear and rotate
• Wiper blades inspection

Are maintenence items I can think of. Check the Owner's Manual maintenance section.

Awesome! Thanks for that list. I’ll also look at the manual. But where can I get a service manual that has the torque specs and directions on it?

 

For inspection with a cold engine, You can open the top end of one of the transmission oil cooler lines to the radiator and get a little bit of fluid out to inspect for color and wear particles. just slide the clamp back, then slide the hose down and catch a bit on a white paper towel. Reassemble and good to go.

 

This is genius! Thanks!

 

If the fluid is fairly clean, I think it's safe to do one drain and fill - this will only replace a small portion of the fluid. Then see how it shifts. If it's fine, in another 6mo - 1yr, do another drain and fill. Rinse, repeat until enough drain/fills so that most of the original fluid has been replaced.

Where people get into trouble with this is when they reach high miles, have dirty fluid, and do a flush or multiple drain/fills to replace all the original fluid in one shot.

 

Hi everyone. So, I’m a newbie to all things car maintenance and repair. I’ve had my van since it was new and never had the transmission fluid changed. I know, I know. It has 189k miles on it. I only use it for long road trips and as my truck when I need to pickup something that won’t fit in my car. Everything is at least a 15 mile drive away; usually more like 30. So, the van hasn’t been used for short trips. If that makes a difference.

Anyhow, I’m now aware the atf fluid should have been changed and am wondering if it’s okay to go ahead and do a drain and fill now?

1. If yes, how many times?
2. What fluid do I need?
3. How many quarts?
4. Where’s the place online to get it?
5. Is there a transmission filter that needs replacement?
6. If no, what’s the reasoning?

I’m not having any problems with the van.

Thanks in advance for helping me.

I think that part of the reason for the "don't change the fluid" mantra is due to people neglecting their tranny, then developing problems, and then trying to change the fluid to solve the shifting (or other) problems, which later become worse (which would have happened anyway), and finally reaching the conclusion that changing the fluid is detrimental.

I've always changed the fluid (or in the case of my 5 speed- the gear oil) every 30k miles.
Your car- do what you think is best.

 

I doubt that someone like AMD from The Car Care Nut YouTube channel who runs his own shop after being a certified Toyota mechanic for many years would agree with your explanation.

 

Draw out some ATF from the fill plug using MityVac and send it to BlackStone for oil analysis and decide from there.

If decided to change, then do a drain/refill, which replaces only a part of the system capacity.

Oil Analysis | Blackstone Laboratories

Learn what's going on in your engine with oil analysis. Our free kits are easy to use and we explain the results in plain English! Since 1985.

www.blackstone-labs.com

 

Draw out some ATF from the fill plug using MityVac and send it to BlackStone for oil analysis and decide from there.

If decided to change, then do a drain/refill, which replaces only a part of the system capacity.

Oil Analysis | Blackstone Laboratories

Learn what's going on in your engine with oil analysis. Our free kits are easy to use and we explain the results in plain English! Since 1985.

www.blackstone-labs.com

This is a good idea. I actually already have a transmission fluid test kit for them — handy. But, would I need to add back more fluid after I get the sample?

Here is another opinion from a retired mechanic that used to rebuild transmissions which is a rational explanation to me. So yeah, check the condition of the transmission fluid first.

Is it true that if your car has over 100K miles and you’ve never changed your transmission fluid, doing so would damage your transmission?

Answer (1 of 12): (updated answer) Not necessarily, however most lubricants change lubricity somewhat over time, depending on their chemical composition. At 100K miles, if someone changes your transmission fluid who is, well, ham-handed about it there’s a good chance they will screw something e...

www.quora.com

He wrote:
"Doug Scott
Class A Mechanic at Retired/Disabled (1977–present)Author has 1.8K answers and 4.1M answer views5y
Depends on the condition of the transmission prior to the fluid change. During my years in auto repair, with a decade of transmission rebuilding in there, I can offer this. If an automatic transmission is abused and shows up with the transmission seeming to be operating normally and customer wants the fluid changed because he checked the transmission oil and noticed it wasn't that red translucent colour, and it smelled burnt. I would advise the customer that if I were to change the fluid and filter, he would likely be back in less than 1000 miles on a tow truck with a failed transmission.

The reason for this failure is quite simple. Automatic transmission fluid is an excellent solvent for removing the “varnish” that is applied inside all the passages, on all the seals, servos, and to the inside of the case. That varnish was actually help the hardened seals work, and would help maintain pressures inside the transmission. Put new fluid in, and it cleans the varnish up, creating massive internal seal leaks, causing clutch packs slipping, which in turn cause clutch pack failures.

It's amazing how well the varnish can glue the transmission together, and equally amazing how new fluid can clean that all up and unseal the transmission.

I learned this first hand back in the 70s. The dealership where I was working was in a small town. They had 1 or 2 of those events every year, and for whatever reason they continued to not warn the customer. When it happened to me (as the mechanic), I didn't like having a “comeback”, ever, so I looked into it as I did the rebuild. I noticed the balls of sludge in the oil pan, and found that the servo seals wear just breaking apart they were so hard. It was easy to see what happened. If the fluid is not brown or black, and does not smell so bad it catches your breath, go ahead and change it. B
"

Do let us know what you find out and do.

Will do. I’m gonna take a peek at it tomorrow and am leaning towards sending a sample off to Blackstone for analysis. I’ll post a pic of what the fluid looks like. I’m a little scared. Lol. 😬

 

Here is another opinion from a retired mechanic that used to rebuild transmissions which is a rational explanation to me. So yeah, check the condition of the transmission fluid first.

Is it true that if your car has over 100K miles and you’ve never changed your transmission fluid, doing so would damage your transmission?

Answer (1 of 12): (updated answer) Not necessarily, however most lubricants change lubricity somewhat over time, depending on their chemical composition. At 100K miles, if someone changes your transmission fluid who is, well, ham-handed about it there’s a good chance they will screw something e...

www.quora.com

He wrote:
"Doug Scott
Class A Mechanic at Retired/Disabled (1977–present)Author has 1.8K answers and 4.1M answer views5y
Depends on the condition of the transmission prior to the fluid change. During my years in auto repair, with a decade of transmission rebuilding in there, I can offer this. If an automatic transmission is abused and shows up with the transmission seeming to be operating normally and customer wants the fluid changed because he checked the transmission oil and noticed it wasn't that red translucent colour, and it smelled burnt. I would advise the customer that if I were to change the fluid and filter, he would likely be back in less than 1000 miles on a tow truck with a failed transmission.

The reason for this failure is quite simple. Automatic transmission fluid is an excellent solvent for removing the “varnish” that is applied inside all the passages, on all the seals, servos, and to the inside of the case. That varnish was actually help the hardened seals work, and would help maintain pressures inside the transmission. Put new fluid in, and it cleans the varnish up, creating massive internal seal leaks, causing clutch packs slipping, which in turn cause clutch pack failures.

It's amazing how well the varnish can glue the transmission together, and equally amazing how new fluid can clean that all up and unseal the transmission.

I learned this first hand back in the 70s. The dealership where I was working was in a small town. They had 1 or 2 of those events every year, and for whatever reason they continued to not warn the customer. When it happened to me (as the mechanic), I didn't like having a “comeback”, ever, so I looked into it as I did the rebuild. I noticed the balls of sludge in the oil pan, and found that the servo seals wear just breaking apart they were so hard. It was easy to see what happened. If the fluid is not brown or black, and does not smell so bad it catches your breath, go ahead and change it. B
"

Do let us know what you find out and do.

 

Another good video explaining why changing burnt fluid leads to problems:

 

I bet this guy (and others ) would agree with my explanation:

I agree with @tom10 also. If the transmission works correctly now, it will work correctly after the fluid is changed. There is a thread like this several times per day across the site and they're full of people who have changed their fluid at high mileage and had the transmission work correctly afterward. They're also full of contrarians who don't understand/refuse to believe what @tom10 said in his first post in this thread.

 

From one of the articles that Tom linked:

Remember, dirty fluid is not an effective lubricant, so it won't disperse well. Once the clutch packs lose their grip, old fluid may be all that's creating the friction needed to keep your transmission from slipping.

So that's confusing also.
The dipstick label says no need to ever change this ATF, but it is dirty and has a gritty feel and flakes showing, so there is a strong urge to drain it and fill back with clean fluid--but is it better to leave it be (don't fix it if it ain't broke), or press on regardless and go for clean?
i've rebuilt a couple of manual trannys in years past due to bearing failure, broken synchro ring, but don't have the time to take on a new project right now.
@JohnGD, how is your trans doing after changing fluid? How bad was the fluid before the change?

 

I just posted a pic of the fluid.

 

How did you end up collecting the sample?

 

Seems like it should be fine since it's not burnt. Keeps us updated.

 

I would start with a simple drain and fill, Will not remove all the grit but will add properties back to the fluid. I see you already did this by accident. I would keep the old fluid, will mention why in a moment. See how that goes for a while. If all good, at your next engine oil change, maybe do another simple drain and fill. If no issues repeat at next engine oil change until your fluid is looking healthy. If your trans starts to slip after changing out the fluid, your trans was already damaged, the gritty bad fluid was just hiding it. You could always keep the dirty fluid you drain on the first drain. and if after the fill with clean fluid you get slipping, you could always try doing another drain and then refill with the old dirty fluid to see if putting that pure dirty stuff back in will give traction back to the bad clutch material, that is if you do not plan on doing a proper repair. Depends on how long you plan on keeping the vehicle. You could get shifting issues changing the fluid or you will have no problems at all and the trans will function better, and smoother. Never know till you roll the dice. I would avoid doing a flush, I am not a fan of flushes. I prefer multiple drain and fills over time. That is what I do with used cars I get that have very old trans fluid. Even after the fluid is nice and fresh again. I will then go ahead and do regular drains and fills at about every 10K. Trans fluid is cheap, and drain and fill is easy (if you have a simple drain plug and dipstick). I change my engine oil every 2,500 miles so I do a trans drain and fill every 4th oil change.

 

Been here with this. 2011 Avalon 6 speed. ASSuming that's what you have, red fluid. No dipstick. But my brother the doctor bought it for me, 145K miles. Trans fluid was black and silver, like yours. You have no choice at this point. Oh, I worked on cars a long time, been there, did not see it on Yoo Toob. On mine a drain and refill was 2 1/4 qts. Oh, and engine speed flaring up 3-4 shift when cold. I got a trans filler tube kit and a 8qt fluid pump. Haynes manual and how to's will show you how. 1st time there was nothing for it ( Samwise Gamgee) but to drop the fluid, added 3 qts back, ran it 10 minutes, drained, repeated 2 gallons worth. Understand the new and old are mixed. This is what happens with a flush machine. LOL. At best by the time I was done maybe 1/3 to 1/2 fluid is new. Remember I had a shift flare, it is mostly gone. No cleaners, no additives. From there once a month I did a gallon at a time. PITA, but now no more shift flare. Valvoline MaxLife NOT the high milage, remember you don't want too much cleaner and seal sweller. After 6 months it was fairly red now, still smelled bad, dropped the pan after a year, Beck Arnley filter and 5 neo hobby magnets from Parts Express in the pan for extra shaving pickup. That was a full change. Been a year since, trans was fine, once every 6 months I just drop the 2 1/4 in the pan. Something to try if you feel adventurous is take off the trans cooler lines and blow through the cooler to make sure it's not blocked. If you tow or run in mountains adding a cooler can't hurt. HTH and please no flames. PS If a car uses red fluid ( and is not Chrysler product) the fluid is Mercon V, Ford invented a fluid that was perfect for torque converter clutches and everyone else started using it, Max Life is affordable and approved by all the OEM's. You are going to save your trans and save a pile of money.

 

Just got the Blackstone report back. The numbers look scary high, but the van is shifting fine since we did the one drain and fill. We’ve driven it 1000 miles since. We were planning on doing another drain and fill, but now we’re not sure if we should. 😬
And I didn’t tell them it was drain and filled before. I said it was done at the time we collected the sample.

 

So since owning it, there were two drains and refills? And the old fluid is losing viscosity.

There's always a chance that the detergent in the new ATF can cause problems as others mentioned. Drive it for another couple thousand miles and see how the transmission behaves. However, knowing the risk, with all those wear particles I'm inclined to change out the felt filter (I suppose you have the U660e transmission, check the manufacturing sticker on the driver door jamb).

My concern is the filter may be clogging up and causing more problems. Hopefully you won't find the proverbial urchin (and note the ATF color in this pan):

 

So since owning it, there were two drains and refills? And the old fluid is losing viscosity.

There's always a chance that the detergent in the new ATF can cause problems as others mentioned. Drive it for another couple thousand miles and see how the transmission behaves. However, knowing the risk, with all those wear particles I'm inclined to change out the felt filter (I suppose you have the U660e transmission, check the manufacturing sticker on the driver door jamb).

Hopefully you won't find the proverbial urchin (and note the ATF color in this pan):

So since owning it, there were two drains and refills? And the old fluid is losing viscosity.

There's always a chance that the detergent in the new ATF can cause problems as others mentioned. Drive it for another couple thousand miles and see how the transmission behaves. However, knowing the risk, with all those wear particles I'm inclined to change out the felt filter (I suppose you have the U660e transmission, check the manufacturing sticker on the driver door jamb).

My concern is the filter may be clogging up and causing more problems. Hopefully you won't find the proverbial urchin (and note the ATF color in this pan):

Sigh, nothing prior to the single drain and fill 1000 miles ago. hangs head in shame Yes, that’s the right transmission.

Is that filter you’re talking about in the pan? Is it difficult to reseal the pan? Is there a gasket? I can only imagine how bad it probably looks.

If we dropped the pan and replace the filter and clean everything up… does the engine need to be warm? Or can it be cold? Is brake cleaner okay to use to clean the pan and magnet?

Thanks for the laugh with the urchin! I needed it.

 

Sigh, nothing prior to the single drain and fill 1000 miles ago. hangs head in shame Yes, that’s the right transmission.

Is that filter you’re talking about in the pan? Is it difficult to reseal the pan? Is there a gasket? I can only imagine how bad it probably looks.

If we dropped the pan and replace the filter and clean everything up… does the engine need to be warm? Or can it be cold? Is brake cleaner okay to use to clean the pan and magnet?

Thanks for the laugh with the urchin! I needed it.

 

Here's a filter and gasket kit off rockauto. you can also order a genuine filter and gasket from an online dealer with WS fluid, if anything to rule out "aftermarket factors".

More Information for BECK/ARNLEY 0440356

There are a few bolts by the subframe that's harder to get to. A 1/4"-drive u-joint or a ratcheting combo wrench can help. I'd do it cold and check the fluid level then. Yes, you can use brake cleaner, allow to fully dry. Torque the pan bolts in stages in a criss-cross pattern using a 1/4-drive inch-pound torque wrench. (I use an old $10 Harbor Freight torque wrench, these days $12 on sale with email coupon, verified against a beam type, but others can use something nicer like a Tekton, or Lexivon on Amazon. Check the numbers sold over the past month to see which ones people are buying.)

Trying to find DIYs still having pictures. Anyway, here's one, similar:

ES350/U660E Transmission Filter Replacement - ClubLexus - Lexus Forum Discussion

ES - 5th Gen (2007-2012) - ES350/U660E Transmission Filter Replacement - For my second trany flush at 155K on the wife’s ES350, I decided to change out the ATF filter but I couldn’t find a how-to on any Lexus thread. A Camry thread provided some guidance. The ATF filter was quite dirty even...

www.clublexus.com

And a video:

 

Thank you for this video. It’s very helpful. And when it comes to the transmission, I‘m gonna stick with OEM parts. I’m looking for the dealership with the best prices.

 

Here’s the Blackstone motor oil analysis. It looks much better than the transmission one.

 

Valvoline HM 0W20 is a good oil with a High Temperature/High Shear (HTHS) rating of 2.7.

Makes me wonder if one should try 0W30 there.

Valvoline HM 0W20 tech spec sheet:

US_Val_FSHM_0W20_MO_EN.pdf - Docusign CLM

sharena21.springcm.com

 

What’s the difference between OW20 and OW30?
I’m glad to know it’s a good oil. And I needed a good report. I was feeling very discouraged after getting the transmission oil analysis results.

 

It's has a higher viscosity at higher temperatures (the -20 and -30 numbers). At lower temperature (defined as 40C), they're both rated the same at 0W. "W" stands for winter.

So at starting both behave similarly, but the -30 will offer a stronger film strength (typically around HTHS 3.5, vs the 2.7 of the 0W20). Since the oil report showed increased wear with the 5000 mile oil, just a thought.

And a note, Toyota for fuel economy reasons recommends only 0W20 for this engine. So you can read between the lines of their paragraph here and decide if you want to try 0W30.

"The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the viscosity characteristic of the oil
when the oil is at high temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity
(one with a higher value) may be better suited if the vehicle is
operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions."

Toyota 2015 Sienna manual, page 597:

https://assets.sia.toyota.com/publications/en/om-s/OM08001U/pdf/OM08001U.pdf

And here:

https://www.siennachat.com/threads/0w30-will-my-engine-blow-up.74067/

 

Well, dang. I didn’t realize this. I would have been using 0W30 all along since we live in the mountains. Gonna switch at the next oil change and see if it makes a difference in the wear of the motor.

I’m still a bit nervous about about dropping the transmission pan since it will essentially be another drain an fill and I don’t know if I’d be better off just leaving it alone. How do you make an educated decision about something like this? What would you do?

edited to add: Valvoline doesn’t make a High Mileage 0W30. Ugh. Now what.

 

Well, there's a reason why comments about not servicing an old transmission that wasn't regularly serviced float around. That I get.

I also regularly service transmissions, around 30-50K miles on modern ones (even those spec'ed "lifetime", LOL), and around 15K in the Dexron III days.

So with the risk in mind, I'd let it run another couple of thousand miles and see how it shifts. If the shifting hasn't changed since owning the car (for example, got harsher or slips in gear - rpm goes up higher before the gear shifts or the car moves) then I personally would go ahead and do a pan drop. With that of course new fluid.

I just prefer new fluid and filter that's all, keeping the risk in mind of course. When a filter gets plugged up, the ATF flow is reduced and the line pressure drops, creating more wear and tear on a transmission. So when weigh which one is worse, I'd rather have a new filter and fluid in the system. But that's just me.

 

Well, there's a reason why comments about not servicing an old transmission that wasn't regularly serviced float around. That I get.

I also regularly service transmissions, around 30-50K miles on modern ones (even those spec'ed "lifetime", LOL), and around 15K in the Dexron III days.

So with the risk in mind, I'd let it run another couple of thousand miles and see how it shifts. If the shifting hasn't changed since owning the car (for example, got harsher or slips in gear - rpm goes up higher before the gear shifts or the car moves) then I personally would go ahead and do a pan drop. With that of course new fluid.

I just prefer new fluid and filter that's all, keeping the risk in mind of course. When a filter gets plugged up, the ATF flow is reduced and the line pressure drops, creating more wear and tear on a transmission.

Sigh. I’m wet behind the ears when it comes to car maintenance. This is my husband’s department and you can see how well he handles it. 🙄

Are you a mechanic?

I’ll wait it out before making my decision. Ugh. This is hard.

ETA: I get it. A plugged filter is bad news. This just bothers me even more because I’m literally (as in the next week) having my mechanic swap in a JDM transmission in my 05 Outback. We changed the fluid at 200k and have no idea if it had ever been done before. I feel like I‘m living in an eternal Groundhog day! Did it cause issues? I can’t say for sure, but jeez!

 

Just an avid DIYer like many on the forum.

Well that's water under the bridge. As for the transmission, I'm more keen on getting that old filter out of there.

As far as not servicing an old transmission, as some comments showed, that's a myth anyway.

 

Myth or not, the Outback now has 216k miles and the transmission still works, but it’s on its last leg. I’m excited to get that JDM in there! I love that car. I know more about it than my husband. Hahahaha!
The Sienna is nice, too. I just don’t like all the electronics. I like simple. I appreciate your help with everything. I still don’t know which motor oil to try.