Engineering, would be my guess.

 

Understressed. Honda has a habit of pushing power to the peak achievable and using that as the usual power level. higher compression, VTEC etc. Toyota leaves more margin.


Generally just more conservative engineering.

 

Once you get down to the metal it's all well built clean lines. The materials you don't see are the best I've seen in any car I've pulled the interior panels off of. Everything lines up right when you put it back together. And things like the quality of the wires and harness connectors are as top notch as I ever saw.

 

Toyota is one of the last to adapt new technologies when it comes to their volume models and that allows them to test and improve the existing components again and again and keep the production cost and prices down. Some say it's a bad thing and Toyota falls back in the tech department. Personally I'm ok with that outdated tech and IMO it's good, it's very good, cuz I want an affordable and reliable transportation and I never cared about super tech and super advanced stuff when it comes to my inexpensive cars.
Honda always had more issues with their automatic trannies. IMO adopting a less than refined and reliable CVT technology was a pretty desperate move to cut the production cost down and increase profits and to me it's another proof that even large and reputable companies are willing to sacrifice the reliability and customer experience for better publicity and higher profit margins.

 

^ David has your answer. Toyota is slow to respond to market changes and it's a calculated/deliberate position. Why fix something that's not broken?

 

^ Why fix something that's not broken?

In the case of the V6, not only is it not broken, it's a class leading combination of performance, real world MPG, NVH, and reliability (no VCM, no history of glass transmissions).

Best powertrain in its class, and it's 11 years old.

That 2.0T in the next Camry has big shoes to fill.

 

Engineering is definitely the main reason. A few other things come to mind: 1) Production process 2) Relationship with their suppliers 3) Trim levels.

The Japanese manufacturing and production process is legendary. During the days around the recession, I remember reading articles about GM managers visiting Toyota's plants and exclaiming that they could never re-produce this system in their plants. This had to do more with the relationship with labor and managers (think back to 2008 and the labor contracts. That was fun.). I remember in my engineering days learning about Continuous Quality Improvement. Basically, it empowers the workers to identify problems in the systems. Finding a mistake on the assembly line is much better than an owner finding it.

Toyota and Honda have a great relationship with their suppliers and protect them when possible. I've read on TN countless times when people recommend staying with OEM for quality reasons. Other car manufactures may do this as well but it seems like Toyota and Hondas suppliers are part of the engineering process.

How Toyota offers their trim levels helps. Limited trim offerings and options limits the variables. If all LE are built the same and the dealer can only add certain options, it limits mistakes. Sucks for the consumer, but in the end you can demand higher quality in the manufacturing process.

My 2 cents.

 

Systems thinking! It's one of the first things they teach you in MBA classes. It's probably the most important way to run a business, but it's difficult to implement if people don't buy-in and if management is vindictive instead of encouraging. Great post!

 

The "new technology" factor is overrated, IMHO. So it's a good move on toyotas part. 90 something percent of hot new technologies are useless crap that is just used to up the price. People like to chase specs. I always feel bad for people that get suckered in to the "latest and greatest" - most of the features are just there to tell other people they're there. But then again, people aren't that bright. Everyone wanted a smart key and push button ignition, but then they forget the car is on fill their house with Carbon Monoxide and die.....

Or, they get Bridgestone tires on their Camry and commit suicide over it because a handful of people on this site said Michelin is better. Meanwhile, the Bridgestones are higher rated, more expensive better tires.

It's all relative. Most people are suckers and can't tell the difference either way.

 

doesn't break down much or most cases, none at all, cheap to repair and maintain when you have to...a simple formula.

 

Hi Folks,

Here's the real core of the reason: "Design for Lean Six Sigma." Boiled down to essentials, it's a philosophy that strives for quality from the very earliest design phases. Japanese car OEMer's have generally been more rigorous about this than their American counterparts, and especially before 2000. Dtownfb's observations about this are correct. I would only add that this Kaizen approach extends all the way forward to the initial concept-development phase.

Best,
Mark

 

Did Toyotas reliability reputation begin in the 1990s with the 3G Camry? There are sources that say Toyota vehicles from the 1980s (especially early 80s) were not as reliable as they are today, Honda vehicles were the preferred import brand in the 80s and that Toyotas reliability peaked in the late 1990s (Ex. 4G Camry) and later declined in quality somewhat in the 2000s - present.

 

Well Honda definitely experienced a bigger growth spurt in the 80's then Toyota do to their fun to drive and economical cars. Honda was the first Asian brand to knock GM off its throne in the early 90's but it didn't take long for Toyota to trump that. If Honda made as many vehicles types as Toyota I have no doubt they would sell more worldwide, but as it sits, Toyota sells more worldwide then any other brand. Toyota really has adopted the cradle to the grave approach and wont be letting go anytime soon. Plus with about 70bil in cash, it would be hard to knock them off without cheating.

 

The explanation which makes the most sense to me is geography.

Japan is an island. Resources are fairly limited. Importing goods is slower and more expensive than being on the mainland. It has become cultural to design things to last from the outset, as it is cheaper for them than a throwaway mentality.

 

You say Honda and Toyota protect and value their suppliers, well could you explain the crisis Honda had with their transmission supplier that led to tons of Honda vehicles with failed automatic trannies? Obviously there was some broken links between Honda and the supplier of their auto trannies.

 

In addition to your observation. How about them Takata air bags on many Hondas?

 

I didn't mention that on purpose since Toyotas also had several airbag recalls and it was fixed on all 2013+ Honda models.

Do you think the 9G accord has the takata issue?

 

Are you talking about the same V6 that had oil sludge issues?

 

No.

 

not just camrys...

 

Some of it is just perception, some of it reality. GM has it's share of reliable vehicles. Plenty of Grand Am's still on the road. They have their own separate sets of issues in some model years but that's how it goes. Toyota has some I4 engines that burn excessive oil, some I4 trannies that have bad torque converters (which they have chosen to warranty for 8 years) and in my case, a sunroof that rattles like crazy often occurring just outside the factory warranty. I'm waiting for them to do the right thing on that one as well. A lot of it depends on model year, especially if you want to buy used.

Vehicle makes of the same model year can vary in dependability as well.

 

Some of it is just perception, some of it reality. GM has it's share of reliable vehicles. Plenty of Grand Am's still on the road. They have their own separate sets of issues in some model years but that's how it goes. Toyota has some I4 engines that burn excessive oil, some I4 trannies that have bad torque converters (which they have chosen to warranty for 8 years) and in my case, a sunroof that rattles like crazy often occurring just outside the factory warranty. I'm waiting for them to do the right thing on that one as well.

A lot of it depends on model year, especially if you want to buy used.

Vehicle makes of the same model year can vary in dependability as well.

ARE YOU SERIOUS? Grand Am - reliable? That is one of the worst cars ever produced, the ghetto crowd usually drives that or ******** since they cant afford any better. Honestly all domestic made vehicles are trash they aren't even made in America all parts from China.

 

I'm new to the Toyota world as you guys know, but these cars are just right. I think it's a synergy thing, design, reliable parts, quality build, etc... I have the 2AR motors and they fly like an eagle! Perfect for the chassis!

I haven't been this happy with a new car in forever!

Camry Rocks! :wink:

 

If anything, the LCs and 4Runners are even more reliable. I believe they're built at one of Toyota's best plants in Japan. Even the folks who would cry that Camrys are on the boring side respect Toyota's trucks, since they hold their values even better than the Camry.

 

What makes you say that T trucks hold their value more than Camry?

 

I'm not knocking Toyota's V6 but calling it "class leading" ignores Nissan's VQ. I've owned a couple and they are very good engines for a very long time

 

I said the Camry V6 has the best powertrain in it's class.

The problem with the VQ is that it's attached to a CVT and installed in a Nissan.

The Honda J series has problematic VCM. Oil consumption, class actions lawsuits, etc. Maybe it's fixed, maybe not.

None of the turbo 4s are competitive.

You can hate the rest of the car, but the Camry V6 powertrain is the gold standard of the FWD midsize class. It's 11 years old and yet it sacrifices nothing vs. newer competitor's engines. It's still one of the fastest in it's class, it still gets competitive fuel economy, AND it sounds good.

Camry: The only midsize non-luxury sedan available with a Lexus V6.

 

Toyota puts simplicity over competitiveness.

 

Late to this thread, but I'll throw this out there. Mike Rother wrote a book on the outlook and management of Toyota in "Toyota Kata". It is a pretty interesting read.

But yeah, I agree with much in this thread about adopting new technologies at a slower pace to wait for maturity. Sometimes it is great (see direct injection systems). Other times it is aggravating ('16 Camry vs '16 Accord in pretty much all aspects. 2016 Camry SE is pretty fun to drive though, I'll admit.)

 

Most people dont know this but Toyota holds the manufactures of their parts accountable for everything. If there is a part failure then the 3rd party pays for it, and not Toyota. Nearly all automotive manufacturers do not do this because it does add to the initial cost of parts, but in the end you have a better part. Since it takes thousands of parts to make a car function, it only makes sense that Toyota would be more reliable then some other brands overall.

 

I wonder what the bill is then for thousands of torque converters that are made of glass? Sucks to be the supplier, but sucks worse being a Camry owner with a crappy shuddering transmission. Been there, done that. They need to step it up and stop putting out marginal product, and then extending the part warranty due to trends that show it WILL fail....just give it time.

The fact they keep rehashing the same transmission TSBs for this 4cyl 6 speed transmission is unacceptable. Cost cutting at its finest.




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Toyota does drop the ball sometimes. It wasn't a Camry but my Mom's Sienna was pretty well garbage.

 

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