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Jalopnik: Can A Camry Driver Also Be A Car Enthusiast?

8.8K views 59 replies 21 participants last post by  mapirc  
#1 · (Edited)
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http://jalopnik.com/can-a-camry-driver-also-be-a-car-enthusiast-1748475024
The Camry is supposedly the antithesis of what enthusiasts want in a car: an appliance, a beigemobile. However, out of the more than six million monthly Jalopnik readers, there is a good chance that some of them are Camry drivers. Are they enthusiasts too? I would say so.

Before I stumbled upon Jalopnik after reading Alex Roy’s The Driver, I dabbled in a few online car communities hoping to interact with other folks who shared my passion. What I found, for the most part, were forums and comment sections filled with keyboard racers and know- it-alls whose only goal was to convince the world that they were the smartest, fastest, and coolest. Practically every conversation was an escalating pissing contest that inevitably culminated in childish insults. I had pretty much given up on online auto communities.

Then I found this place and later joined the reader community known as Oppositelock. The requirements for this club were simple, but unspoken -“Do you like cars?” Fast ones, slow ones, weird ones, even if you didn’t know that much about cars, it didn’t matter. If you were into cars or even car related things, you were welcome. What you drove took a back seat to what you loved. Sure, there was ribbing and shit-talking, but it all seemed in good fun.

Except for the Camry drivers, it seemed. Don’t get me wrong, the whole “grounded to the ground” campaign certainly deserved ridicule. But there is this strange sociological phenomenon that happens when a bunch of like-minded individuals come together. They collectively feel the need to establish some type of moral, physical, or intellectual superiority over another group. In our case, it’s the “Drive Free or Die” manual gearbox brown diesel Miata wagon drivers vs. the mindless sheeple that buy Camrys.

Let’s get something straight though: just because a car is not cool doesn’t mean it’s a bad car. We all know that the inverse of that is true, as there are many cars that by any objective measures are terrible, but we love them anyway.

Choosing what car to buy is much more complicated than picking something that reflects our position as an enthusiast. For most of us, a vehicle is a tool that has to serve several purposes, and so everyone approaches this equation with a different set of priorities. Performance, features, comfort, reliability and cost all must be balanced out to find a car that will work best for that specific buyer and their circumstances. It also has to get you around or it’s not much good.

When I started my auto consulting business I had one goal: to give buyers more confidence in their purchase. I wanted to address the two biggest concerns from a lot of car buyers, namely, “Did I get a good deal and did I buy the right car?”

The getting a good deal part is not that complicated. It takes skill, diligence and can be time-consuming, but once you have an understanding on how the dealers operate, the process is pretty much the same from dealership to dealership. The challenge was helping people choose the right car. This was a major purchase that they are going to have to live with for a long time. I didn’t want them thinking a year or two down the road, “Should I have bought something else?”

I learned very early on not to impose my enthusiast tendencies onto someone else’s purchase. My job was to find the best car for them, not me. There are people that think it’s strange that I spent almost $30,000 on a Volkswagen hatchback with cloth seats and a manual transmission. And many of you think it’s strange that someone would choose a Camry over all the amazing new and used options out there.

But it all comes down to how that buyer approaches their purchase, and it might just be possible that the best option for them is a Camry.

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Let’s face it: you could do a lot worse than a sensible, extremely reliable family sedan.

Choosing a Camry over a used Maserati for the same price doesn’t make someone any less of a Jalop. It doesn’t diminish their enthusiasm for cool cars. Maybe they will buy something more interesting later, maybe not. Perhaps they have already owned some neat rides in their lifetime and at this stage of the game, the circumstances call for something more sensible.

And besides, what if they have that Camry in their garage next to the used Maserati that serves as the weekend toy, or the old project car that’s constantly a work in progress? You never know what people’s priorities are until you ask.

With the infusion of more consumer-oriented car buying articles and Buyer’s Guides, our readership has grown. This is a good thing. I’m not saying that you should purchase or even like the Camry, or any other car that you deem “uncool.” You don’t have to drive it. The important thing to remember is that Jalopnik is an inclusive car community rather than an exclusive one and that someone’s choice of vehicle whether it be a Camry, Prius, or PT Cruiser doesn’t disqualify them as a valued member.
I believe wallaby13 posts here!
 
#2 · (Edited)
the whole “grounded to the ground” campaign certainly deserved ridicule.
:) yeah, that grounded to the ground and all new bold Camry is embarrassing. :facepalm:
Mazda dealer wanted $25,500 for a similarly equipped Mazda6. We bought the Toyota for $20,500. On top of the price, it's one of the only in the segment to have a 6 speed not a CVT.
That's pretty much summarizes why I bought my Camry. I liked the ride and it was much cheaper than an Accord, Sonata 2.0T or Mazda6.
Personally I think a Camry is a good car and a Camry owner can be anything he wants, but a Camry is no enthusiast's car.
 
#8 ·
:) yeah, that grounded to the ground and all new bold Camry is embarrassing. :facepalm:

That's pretty much summarizes why I bought my Camry. I liked the ride and it was much cheaper than an Accord, Sonata 2.0T or Mazda6.
Personally I think a Camry is a good car and a Camry owner can be anything he wants, but a Camry is no enthusiast's car.
+1
I owned more than a dozen of cars and 4 of them were Camrys and might get another one, 2017 model. I have always been into cars and learned to drive when I was 12-13 years old and I consider myself to be a car enthusiast and some of my cars (A6 2.4 quattro, A6 2.7t, Maxima, Passat 2.0, 325i) were very interesting to drive and own, but... A Camry is no enthusiast car, even a SE V-6 and XSE. The Camry is a good, reliable, comfy enough, affordable etc, but I see nothing "enthusiast" about the Camry and I agree with others: a car enthusiast can own a Camry, but Camry is no enthusiast car.
 
#3 ·
A Camry is no enthusiast car, regardless of what trim one buys. To be honest, none of the midsize sedans qualify as "enthusiast" cars; even the Mazda 6. But I still consider myself a car enthusiast and I drive a Camry. I don't think driving a Camry disqualifies you from enjoying cars. In fact, I think it's smart for all enthusiasts to have a RELIABLE method of transportation in case the performance car fails.

I will be looking to buy a Ford Focus RS when they drop stateside this year. I'll most likely wait another year before buying one, but I think that most definitely qualifies as an "enthusiast" car. Honestly though, I'm not really worried about anyone else's definition of what an enthusiast is. I like working on old cars, I enjoy reading about new cars, and I love my Camry. That's all that needs to be said.
 
#4 ·
Already heard there's a waiting list for them, and some Ford dealers are already marking them up. :frown:
 
#5 ·
Can a Camry driver be an enthusiast? Absolutely! Why not?

I love cars and drove Camry's for work and in my private life for years. Is it what you drive that makes you an enthusiast? Of course not...I know people with late model Porsches who know nothing about cars and care even less - except for the fact that they think they are driving a rolling billboard proclaiming their status and importance in the world - and that isn't my definition of an enthusiast.

Is the Camry an "enthusiast's car?" That's another question entirely...but I say yes. Why not? If you're an enthusiast and you enjoy driving your Camry then it's an enthusiast's car. 'Sporty' is as 'sporty' does.There, done.
 
#6 ·
I'm a Camry driver and yes I'm a car enthusiast....I just use the Camry for daily driver duties...Have it for sixteen months and have 32k on it...I'm very disappointed with it but that's another story...My play cars are a 1990 Mustang 5.0 7-up limited edition convertible and a 1972 Ford Ranchero which is a running project...I've owned different range of cars and trucks over the years and just comes down to what works for a eighty four miles daily round trip drive for me...I'll run the Camry into the ground because that what I bought for but being on the freeway for two hours a day it does the job...
 
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#7 ·
My toy is a 1991 LX 5.0. My Camry is a no-option LE in Super White with a grey interior. How boring is that? Nonetheless, I don't worry about breakdowns, NVH, thieves, bad gas mileage, a ding or two, etc.in my Camry. I wouldn't mind a turbocharger though. Imagine getting your headlights sucked out by such a plain vehicle. (Why do you think my Mustang is an LX?)
 
#9 ·
IDK, Im an enthusiast..

It just takes some work to get the camry where you want it to be.

From factory the SE model does have the painted grill and black headlights. But not too much else in the term "sport"

But When I bought mine, I didnt look at it like i was going to like it, I bought it to trade in the future for something "enthusiastic"

After looking at it, with the front pointing at the sky, the 4x4 look, the awful wheels, the rear wheel well flares.. I did like the body lines of my camry.
While its not much for power or "sport" just a simple drop and new set of wheels gives the car a whole new attitude.

As shown in the picture threads, theres nothing wrong with it be an enthusiast car. I think whatever brand car is limited to the aftermarket support available to make it unique with quality parts. Anyone can go on ebay and buy rediculas decals, spoilers, etc. But if theres not much support for real parts, then your enthusiasm has its limitations.
 
#10 ·
I'm of the mind that despite what Mazda fanboys say there is no midsized family sports sedan until you get to the luxury makes or something older. Having driven a couple G37s there is a big difference in how they drive, with the second/last gen TSX straddling the line between the two. Of course this is talking purely of driving dynamics which is what tends to define it for a new car. I find older stuff to blur the lines a little when you start considering things like rare trim/option combinations that appeal to someone who is well versed in a specific car and finds them interesting for that reason purely over how they drive.
 
#11 ·
I have fond memories of taking my 5th gen V6 to the track in college just for the heck of it. People get really mad when they get beat by a Camry, and I got my doors blown off by an old Chevy S10. :D

Tried 2 Euro cars as daily drivers...both constantly had something wrong with them, despite one only being 3 years old. Not looking to repeat that any time soon.

My formula now is:
-Project car/fun car/weekend car (currently a 75 BMW, on the lookout for something old with a V8).
-Wife's car.
-Cheap, reliable DD for myself. I'll get a stick shift as long as they keep making cars with them.
 
#12 · (Edited)
you're welcome ;)

FYI here's the follow post

Wow my post made it, I’ve been away for holidays but if anyone is interested in my resume:

  1. 1996 Volvo 850R
  2. 1995 Volvo 850 T-5R - manual swapped, lsd, engine swap
  3. 1996 Volvo 850 Turbo
  4. 2002 Miata
  5. 2006 Jetta TDI
  6. 2014 Focus ST
  7. 2015 Camry
  8. 2003 BMW 330i - 5 speed, sport pack

Camry Story: At the beginning of this year I had the 2006 TDI and the 2014 FoST. My GF called me and surprise! a kid is on the way. The GF can drive stick, but she’s short (like 5’ 2”) and had to sit with her belly on the steering wheel. So my dad got the TDI, and the FoST was traded in on a Camry. I looked at tons of used options. A 10 year old Camry with 150K was going for $10,000. So in my mind it made more sense to buy a new one. I would have gone for an Audi A4, however we drive A LOT, like in 6 months we did 15,000 miles, and depreciation factors in here.

Then on Christmas Eve, I found my “enthusiast” replacement. A 2003 330i 5 speed, sport pack, 110K, former CPO car.

If that’s not enough for you I worked my way through college at tire shops, worked on the FSAE team, got my Mechanical Engineering degree, and now I do calibration/OBD/simulation work for a HD diesel OEM.

I believe wallaby13 posts here!
Thanks for the shout out, I've been away for holidays but I'm back now.

I'm of the mind that despite what Mazda fanboys say there is no midsized family sports sedan until you get to the luxury makes or something older. Having driven a couple G37s there is a big difference in how they drive, with the second/last gen TSX straddling the line between the two. Of course this is talking purely of driving dynamics which is what tends to define it for a new car. I find older stuff to blur the lines a little when you start considering things like rare trim/option combinations that appeal to someone who is well versed in a specific car and finds them interesting for that reason purely over how they drive.
When I drove the Mazda6 I was extremely disappointed. The interior buttons and knobs were all very cheap feeling, the CVT makes the whole car lethargic, the brakes were nothing special, and the ride/driving dynamics weren't anything special either. The steering weight was just as minimal as the Camry. Worse, the body lines on the Mazda6 meant I couldn't tell where the corners of the car were. Seriously the 6 has terrible visibility.

The TSX was a choice, however the car is smaller than the Camry. The Camry comfortably fit's 3 in the back, even with a 6' tall driver and 6' tall passengers the legroom is plentiful. The trunk space is also better than the TSX. We did find a TSX wagon, however the price was something like $22,000 with 60,000 miles already. And again the back seat leg room wasn't enough for me.

I really really wanted the Sonata 2.0T, but the dealer played too many games and never even let us test drive one. Instead they kept trying to upsell us into the full size Sante Fe or the smaller Buick Encore.

The Camry understeers but so does literally everything on the market. Car's are designed to understeer because it's safer than oversteer. However if you give the car a touch of throttle through the turn (accelerating slightly while cornering) you can find a happy balance of near neutral steering. It's pretty fun to get all 4 crappy bridgestone tires squealing the entire time through a clover leaf on/off ramp.
 
#16 ·
When I drove the Mazda6 I was extremely disappointed. The interior buttons and knobs were all very cheap feeling, the CVT makes the whole car lethargic, the brakes were nothing special, and the ride/driving dynamics weren't anything special either. The steering weight was just as minimal as the Camry. Worse, the body lines on the Mazda6 meant I couldn't tell where the corners of the car were. Seriously the 6 has terrible visibility.
Not trying to pick on you or anything, but the Mazda6 has a 6AT. I actually liked how the transmission acted in that car, but to each his own!
 
#14 ·
Yup, the '95 was heavily modified. Held 22 psi of boost (factory is 13 psi) for 220,000 miles before the compression started to drop and blow by became an issue.

My brother just sold the '96 Turbo and took my dad's '97 non turbo that has 250K+ but a better maintenance history than the '96.

The thing people forget is the 2.3L turbo Volvo's from the 90's made 220-250 hp stock. Or the equivalent of the same year 5.0L mustang...
 
#20 · (Edited)
I remember when a 1987 Buick Grand National was the fastest, or at least certainly one of the fastest, cars to come out of Detroit. The Camry V6 (XLE in my case) is just about as fast. The stock handling of the Grand National was somewhat better than the XLE in stock form and probably close to the SE, but the GN had a much softer ride and less understeer. (Good handling doesn't have to mean a stiff suspension.) By changing the wheels and rear sway bar as I did on the XLE, handling is in a totally different league, and definitely more than enough to get the adrenaline flowing in the twisties. Understeer is almost nil.

So the Camry is, or at least can be, a genuinely engaging, fun car to drive. It will never be a Corvette, but it can still put a big smile on my face. I take this to be proof that good, reliable, economical transportation doesn't have to be boring.

Best,
Mark
 
G
#21 ·
Is the Camry an enthusiast auto? I think so. Fox body Mustangs with 5.0 V8= 225hp. LT1 Camaro/ Transam =275/285hp. Camry V6=268hp. The V6 I have is quicker at the track then the mentioned vehicles, has two less cylinders and gets far better gas mileage, more reliable, and is a sleeper in the mountains. So what are you comparing the Camry to. If it is anything in the same price range, I believe the V6 SE is quite a contender. It is also about middle of the pack of Toyotas top ten Fastest Toyotas.
 
#30 ·
How about less than decent steering, lousy brakes, missing connection to the road, sloppy seats, "entry level" torsional rigidity, "fun to drive" FWD, ugly weight distribution? Sure one can invest tons of money and s..tload of time and make a very exiting to drive car out of any car, but it's not what we are talking about. There is a difference between the car that was engineered and built to be an exiting car and modified to feel exiting car and Camry ain't the first one.
 
#28 ·
My Camry is a reliably designed daily commute car for driving to work. After it has accumulated a number of years, I'll discard it without a second thought and buy myself something I can actually like.

In the meantime, the Camry is a great car for leaving at the airport for two weeks and for not caring about getting it dinged up in a parking lot. In many ways, the Camry is like a good piece of toilet paper... it's purely functional and is only remarkable if it ever requires me to pay it any attention.

I like cars, and I like how the Camry fits my needs as an efficient daily driver to work, but I have no emotional attachment to it whatsoever.
 
#29 ·
In many ways, the Camry is like a good piece of toilet paper... it's purely functional and is only remarkable if it ever requires me to pay it any attention.
I, too, prefer toilet paper over maple tree leaves. The cleaning is not as satisfactory when using leaves. I think this is an essence of being an enthusiast.
 
#34 ·
As a senior engineer with multiple patents and as a university lecturer I could skewer that last post with ease but won't. Call me when we get back to an intelligent, objective discussion, and not one based on opinionated pronouncements parading as fact.
How is your title and number of patents germane to the discussion topic? Is my opinion less worthy because I move turd for a living? One's opinion is just one's opinion no more or no less regardless of your upbringing or education level.
 
#32 ·
:) It's your opinion against mine. I had a few more or less driver oriented cars and while I love my DD Camry IMO even a V6 XSE has nothing on something like an old 325i or A6 quattro and o-60 means very little here. The Camry wins in comfort, reliability and price department, but it's not even in the same league when it comes to excitement and fun to drive. It's like comparing a book shelf stereo that has a bunch of ports, sound effects, simulators, separate sub and a colorful display to a good 5-7-ch amplifier that paired with a set of good speakers: they both can do the same thing, but they built for different purposes and sound very different too. Would an audiophile buy a book shelf stereo if he needs something affordable and compact to listen to morning news? Yes, but he wont call it anything but a book shelf stereo.
 
#33 · (Edited)
Started to type a long reply but the internet crashed. David, that's a bit better. As to all opinions being created equal, I'm sorry, but they are not. I've done design work for GM and consulted for my employer's active suspension work. I've also actually measured torsional stiffness on some projects I worked on. Case in point - I started with a ladder frame design with only 2,100 ft-lb/deg torsional stiffness about it's longitudinal axis, measured between front and rear axles. I could go on and on about the work I've done with cars, but it would probably bore you to read it, and bore me to write it.

Please remember the context in which I shared my enthusiasm - I actually went out of my way to frame my opinion in relative terms, saying, for example, that a Camry isn't (nor shall it ever be) a Corvette. Now while I haven't compared my Camry back-to-back with any Audi, I have compared it back-to-back with a Porsche Panamera and a Kia K900 using the same test route, and my Camry had far better handling, with better steering stability and feedback. In stock XLE form the comparison would have been laughable, except possibly in the realm of steering transient response. (Definition = magnitude of maximum yaw acceleration when steering receives a standardized step-function input, at a given speed.)

As to cost, the modifications to my XLE cost roughly $2k. That's about 7% of the car's MSRP, so if that constitutes, "a ton of money," then that's your call. For you. If it's not a ton of money, then you might try to duplicate my results and then chime in as to whether your Camry is still just a plain-vanilla appliance. Also, to say that 0-60 means little here, data to back that up? I think most enthusiasts would agree that 0-60 is not a trivial aspect of performance, since maximum acceleration - in both longitudinal and transverse senses - is the central metric of vehicle performance.

About the analogy between commodity-level sonic performance and what audiophiles prefer, I won't open that can of worms, having designed for both ends of that spectrum. Suffice it to say that the difference between "average" and "best" in that realm is at least an order of magnitude greater than the case with cars. And yes, I have mountains of data on both sides to prove that.

Thanks,
Mark
 
#36 ·
Having had a number of enthusiast type cars over the years and enjoying working on them, doing automotive research , etc, I can say that a Camry driver can be an enthusiast.

To wit:

1. I enthusiastically drove my brand new 2014.5 Camry SE off the lot, priced at just over $19,000 before TTL. Awesome price point for a great car!
2. I enthusiastically chose my Camry to drive over my Corvette or CR-V 4WD for over 80% of the miles I drove the last year. Purposefully.
3. I enthusiastically drive past gas stations in town and on the interstate while I get nearly 30 mpg around town and nearly 35 mpg on the highway in my Camry.
4. I enthusiastically drive my appliance white, Camry to HEB, Walmart and Home Depot so that if I get a door ding on it, I don't go ballistic. Cannot say the same about my showroom pristine Corvette.
5. I enthusiastically carry four passengers, lumber, flooring, groceries, oversize Christmas presents, rods and reels, bicycles, my cat, etc within its cargo space. Try that in a Corvette.
6. I enthusiastically drive by automotive repair shops, with domestic/foreign performance cars sitting outside, while performing errand after errand, knowing my Camry will get me to and from the task safely, efficiently and dependably.
7. I will enthusiastically sell the Camry in a few years when I buy my wife a new Lexus or Cadillac SUV to replace her CR-V. I won't give it a second thought, unlike parting with other of my cars over the years. It will run beautifully then, as it does now.

As an enthusiast, I respect my Camry SE for the vehicle that it is and the purchase space that it was designed and sold under. It doesn't have a V-6 for a reason. Nobody would call it a performance car but I enthusiastically drive it everyday, because I am learning to really like the car for what it does really well-transport me around town and all over this nation, performing a myriad of tasks dependably and economically.

Who wouldn't be enthusiastic about that ? :grin:
 
#37 ·
#38 · (Edited)
Nothing exotic-it is just a '12 Coupe A6, purchased new in Detroit in Spring of 2012 and driven home to Texas after Easter.

Don't drive it much but did track it at Bowling Green last summer. Amazing performance! Reminds me of a T-38 Talon-eye watering acceleration; lots of G in the corners; Borla exhaust roars like full A/B...

America's sports car. I like it almost as much as my Camry SE. :grin:



 
#42 ·
Hi Folks,

It would seem there are two flavors of enthusiasm here: one of Camry as a dependable, affordable, comfortable mode of transportation, and another of Camry as a genuinely fun car to drive. Everyone will concede, myself included, that the second flavor is very much subordinate to the first.

Thankfully while the two flavors may be somewhat mutually-exclusive, they are not completely so. So by having a V-6, and spending roughly $2k to upgrade tires and suspension, which was my deliberate choice since having a Corvette isn't a luxury I choose to afford, I can get roughly 90% of the benefits claimed by dozing for his Camry, with maybe 25% (estimating this fraction is very vague, and probably highly non-linear,) of the benefits of a Corvette beyond those of an I-4 SE.

To me that's a win-win since the sum is roughly 115% of that of the base Camry alone.

Best,
Mark
 
#45 ·
Not sure what you're exactly saying, but guys who've reached the magical age are usually able to buy and afford the Corvette as you've seen here ("mid life crisis lol"). Owning a Corvette is much different from thinking your Camry IS a Corvette. Of course, with anyone, every one is different so YMMV.
 
#48 · (Edited)
Agreed, Nels0300. It's often not appreciated that steering response is strongly influenced by the tire, since the lateral sidewall spacing and sidewall stiffness dominate the tire’s torsional stiffness about a vertical axis. The 235-45 ZR-18’s I used changed the steering from sloppy and vague with the OE tires to reasonably sharp, with good tactile feedback to the steering wheel. Of course, I’ve driven much better, but I can still vouch that the Camry steering system with stiff tires can provide reasonably good road feel with good tracking and stability over bumpy surfaces, although I think the steering geometry could stand maybe 10-20mm more mechanical trail. Maybe in the universe of cars I’ve driven over the past five years, we’re talking of an improvement from a rough rating of about 3 out of 10, to about 7 out of 10. Let’s call that the “high-end” of the vanilla range, or bordering on strawberry. (Going back a bit, about the comment that vanilla is vanilla no matter how we modify the car, that’s absurd.)

Best,
Mark
 
#49 ·
Agreed, Nels0300. It's often not appreciated that steering response is strongly influenced by the tire, since the lateral sidewall spacing and sidewall stiffness dominate the tire’s torsional stiffness about a vertical axis. The 235-45 ZR-18’s I used changed the steering from sloppy and vague with the OE tires to reasonably sharp, with good tactile feedback to the steering wheel.
Best,
Mark
I agree about tires and steering stability/response....very noticeable improvement when I upsized rims from 15 to 17"ers and from OEM tires to much superior tread.....
 
#50 · (Edited)
I was honestly puzzled by the "plain vanilla" remarks and sought to research further. This review came up for the 2015 Porsche Panamera, which I had a chance to test last March on the same test route I use for my modified 2012 XLE with V-6:

"The 2015 Porsche Panamera gets plentiful power from its base six-cylinder engine, test drivers say. They add that higher trims have even more appealing engine options, like the Panamera S with its twin-turbocharged six-cylinder engine, or the Panamera Turbo S with its twin-turbo eight-cylinder engine. The base 2015 Panamera gets an EPA-estimated 18/28 city/highway, which is on par for the class. The Panamera is also available in a plug-in hybrid trim, the S E-Hybrid, which gets 50 mpg-equivalent combined city/highway and can travel up to 15 miles on electricity alone.

All Panameras have an automatic transmission. Rear-wheel drive is standard and all-wheel drive is available. Auto writers agree that the Porsche Panamera has sports car-caliber handling, with precise steering and minimal body lean during cornering. They also praise its strong brakes and say that it has a firm, yet comfortable, ride."

(Attribution: 12/10/15 by U.S. News Best Cars. Italics mine.)

I checked roughly ten other reviews of this car for the 2015 model year, and most seem to have about the same assessment.

Now, would we agree to say that this Porsche is probably a step or two above "plain vanilla?" And if so, then would it be fair to characterize as "plain vanilla" the fact that my mod'd XLE has vastly better handling than the Porsche in every aspect, except in the realm of NVH (Noise, Vibration, and Harshness)? Again, I'm not trying to perpetuate a flame war or call attention to myself in any way, but the amazing handling of my mod'd XLE is simply too good to keep to myself. If others duplicate this modification and enjoy handling that no one would expect from an otherwise plain-vanilla Camry, then mission accomplished. For those interested, please read this thread for details:

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/3....com/forum/310-7th-generation-2012/749570-sway-bar-options-7th-gen-camry-s.html

The two changes outlined therein correct the two "fatal flaws" of Camry's handling, neither of which is truly inherent to the car's design: first, limited traction from mediocre tires; second, ponderous understeer.

Peace,
Mark
 
#51 ·
I was honestly puzzled by the "plain vanilla" remarks and sought to research further. This review came up for the 2015 Porsche Panamera, which I had a chance to test last March on the same test route I use for my modified 2012 XLE with V-6:

"The 2015 Porsche Panamera gets plentiful power from its base six-cylinder engine, test drivers say. They add that higher trims have even more appealing engine options, like the Panamera S with its twin-turbocharged six-cylinder engine, or the Panamera Turbo S with its twin-turbo eight-cylinder engine. The base 2015 Panamera gets an EPA-estimated 18/28 city/highway, which is on par for the class. The Panamera is also available in a plug-in hybrid trim, the S E-Hybrid, which gets 50 mpg-equivalent combined city/highway and can travel up to 15 miles on electricity alone.

All Panameras have an automatic transmission. Rear-wheel drive is standard and all-wheel drive is available. Auto writers agree that the Porsche Panamera has sports car-caliber handling, with precise steering and minimal body lean during cornering. They also praise its strong brakes and say that it has a firm, yet comfortable, ride."

(Attribution: 12/10/15 by U.S. News Best Cars. Italics mine.)

I checked roughly ten other reviews of this car for the 2015 model year, and most seem to have about the same assessment.

Now, would we agree to say that this Porsche is probably a step or two above "plain vanilla?" And if so, then would it be fair to characterize as "plain vanilla" the fact that my mod'd XLE has vastly better handling than the Porsche in every aspect, except in the realm of NVH (Noise, Vibration, and Harshness)? Again, I'm not trying to perpetuate a flame war or call attention to myself in any way, but the amazing handling of my mod'd XLE is simply too good to keep to myself. If others duplicate this modification and enjoy handling that no one would expect from an otherwise plain-vanilla Camry, then mission accomplished. For those interested, please read this thread for details:

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/3....com/forum/310-7th-generation-2012/749570-sway-bar-options-7th-gen-camry-s.html

The two changes outlined therein correct the two "fatal flaws" of Camry's handling, neither of which is truly inherent to the car's design: first, limited traction from mediocre tires; second, ponderous understeer.

Peace,
Mark
I like my Camry for what it is and not pretending that it's something that it's ain't. I also like my Vette and my son's Evo. My boss had a 2013 Panamera S. I drove with him a few times and of course he flexed his muscles to show off.
With all due respect, comparing the Panamera to any Camry, no matter how many "weekend DIY modification" it has is just beyond insane. Like hundreds and thousands of light years beyond insane.