Try running a ground wire to the igniter body right from the battery.

 

When setting timing you're supposed to jump two wires together in the OBD 1 port first. Sounds like you didn't do that and the timing is too far advanced. I can't remember the two wires but this recently came up in the last few weeks. I suppose a search would be in order.

Timing or transmission?

1991 Camry LX 4cyl auto The Issue: when I purchased the car, the car drove normal, however the timing was advanced and it failed a smog check for that reason. I bought a timing light and rotated the distributor to set it to the correct ignition timing (10). After doing that there is a huge lack...

www.toyotanation.com

 

I did jump the terminals. Every test I performed was to the instructions in the Chilton's and each was done 3-4 times to be sure. Also, the problem started before I did the timing. There was a slight difference, but essentially, no change. So if anyone else suspects an oversight or error on my side, you'll have to take up with Chilton's. 😁
The car didn't stall and stay dead until about a week or better after I dialed in the timing.

I'm heading out to reinstall my ECU and put everything back together to try this ground wire on the ignitor. I can't try a swapped ECU until I can go get one from the junkyard tomorrow.

 

If the MAF connected? Fuel pump won't run without it. Since you have compression and say you have spark that only leaves a lack of fuel. BTW I bought a '87 as a parts car awhile back had a crank no start condition, checked for spark I had it. Grounded the igniter fired right up so the spark I saw was too weak.

 

I do believe my spark is weak. I'm getting plenty of fuel, plugs come out wet after cranking. I just put everything back together and I came across something that might be a contributor. I found a hole in the vacuum line that connects the throttle body to the BVSV. I'll need to run to the parts store and get a new line before I bother trying to fire it up. Anyone know if this would affect it firing up? Actually, I'm going to go see what happens. I have some heat shrink tubing I could temp patch it just to see if it's part of the problem.

 

The ground wire did the trick. Had her going, but I place my jumper too soon and stalled it. Gonna charge her up and hopefully have her rollin' tonight. Thank you for that most awesome tip.

 

Cool. I recommend you make a ground wire that goes from the negative terminal then to the frame that the igniter bolts to and also directly to one of the screws on the igniter. This is a strange design by Toyota it's not smart to rely on body ground for something so critical.

 

I recommend you make a ground wire that goes from the negative terminal then to the frame that the igniter bolts to and also directly to one of the screws on the igniter.

I did this on my 3s-gte swap as a just-in-case... (it mounts up on the firewall in that case)

On the 3s-fe design with the ignitor right next to the battery, rust issues can really cause problems with the ground, especially at this age.

As was reading the original story, it sounds just like a coil issue. The coil was likely the original problem, but the ignitor happened later with the 'sudden' stall.

-Charlie

 

Yeah I ran it on the upper screw between the body and the mount. Just made sure I ran some scotch Brite on the back to take any paint or crap off around the hole. I would have been chasing and replacing and getting no where. Thanks again. Never would I have thought of that.

 

Took me a few hours to think of it, what tipped me off is seeing how the factory runs grounds to the frame so they were at least trying to ensure good grounding meaning it was important. I wonder how many of these cars get scrapped because of this, you can do all the proper tests and find nothing wrong but the car still won't run.

 

Well, after having it running a bit last night before killing it with the jumper, it seems I now have a new issue.....no fuel. Plugs were consistently wet before she fired up last night. Today I pulled the plugs and got a new set just because. Getting good looking spark, but when I pulled the plugs, completely dry. Fuel flows when the MAF door is opened, but the injectors don't seem to be activating. Nothing has changed from last night to this morning except a new set of plugs. Gotta walk away for a bit or it's gonna get ugly, I'm so damn frustrated.

 

Check the ground on the intake manifold close to the firewall.

 

I don't seem to have a ground on the intake, not that I can see anyway. The EFI fuse is good, could it possibly be the EFI relay has suddenly gone out?

 

Ground is hard to see, about middle of intake right against the firewall. Turn the key to ON observe if the check engine light is on, if not the EFI relay may have a bad connection this happened to me (no start condition). I replaced the relay problem never came back.

 

Ground locations:

• Alternator bracket to power steering reservoir
• Battery to fender and top of transmission
• (auto only) Transmission to frame rail under battery

The ECU and engine wiring grounds to the engine on the #2 runner behind/below the manifold. Probably easiest to access from below the car, but maybe you can see/feel it from above?

Not high on my list of possibilities, but odd stuff can happen!

-Charlie

 

The ECU and engine wiring grounds to the engine on the #2 runner behind/below the manifold. Probably easiest to access from below the car, but maybe you can see/feel it from above?

Not high on my list of possibilities, but odd stuff can happen!

-Charlie

Car will not start if this is loose or not connected. Source: I forgot to tighten the bolt

 

I found the intake ground, came across pics in another thread. I'll check that here soon, but it wasn't loose. Upon checking my spark again, it is still a weak spark (orange in color). I noticed the ignitor I picked up from an 89 had a different part number on it. Switched back to the original, no change. Things get a lil confusing because I have the engine electrical of an automatic even though I have a 5spd. TPS is for an automatic with ECT, but no ECT. ECM matches the one for an automatic w/ ECT. The ground from the transmission to the "frame rail" under the battery, by that do you mean the one on the battery tray? If so, than I have that one as well, even though I have a 5spd. I wouldn't think it would be a big deal as the car was running fine the year and a half I've owned it before all this started.

Going through the book and from tidbits in other threads, I'm starting to lean toward a new distributor, which isn't the one I'm supposed to have. According to the Chilton's, my distributor is for 90-91 models, not the 87-89 models. I'm basing that off where the air gap gets checked. The distributor passes all the checks, but there is some oil inside the housing, not sure if that could be my issue. There are a couple holes in the bottom of the housing that look like they're drain holes, so maybe a lil is normal? I was contemplating disassembling the distributor and cleaning it all up.

EFI relay was fine, check engine light comes on when the key is on. I have a few more checks to to look at also that weren't in the book, but I found in other threads here. Once I find them again that is.

One thing I noticed and it's had me thinking because I know they can be an issue with the older cars that run off points and that would be the condenser. The book says nothing about it and I haven't noticed it mentioned here at all. Anyone think that could be an issue in this setup?

Oooh! One other thing and I know it's bad, but I don't think I hurt anything. When it died and wouldn't start I thought MAF because I had similar issues with a 91 I used to have and it was the MAF. I thought mine was bad because the resistance values didn't match the book on one set of terminals. The VC - E2 is listed as 3k-7k ohms for the 3S-FE, 200 - 400 ohms for the 2VZ-FE. I get a lil over 200 ohms on mine and 3 other MAFs from the junkyard, leading me to think the values are swapped in the book. Anyway, and this was prior to coming here, I pulled the screws out of the MAF and started to remove it, but quickly realized it wasn't right. I had it pulled out maybe an 1/8th of an inch and put it back. All the values are still correct and activating the door engages the fuel pump, so I don't think I've done any damage, but full disclosure to be safe. Off to clean up some grounds. Thank you everyone for your time and advice. I will keep ya posted.

 

I found the intake ground, came across pics in another thread. I'll check that here soon, but it wasn't loose. Upon checking my spark again, it is still a weak spark (orange in color). I noticed the ignitor I picked up from an 89 had a different part number on it. Switched back to the original, no change. Things get a lil confusing because I have the engine electrical of an automatic even though I have a 5spd. TPS is for an automatic with ECT, but no ECT. ECM matches the one for an automatic w/ ECT. The ground from the transmission to the "frame rail" under the battery, by that do you mean the one on the battery tray? If so, than I have that one as well, even though I have a 5spd. I wouldn't think it would be a big deal as the car was running fine the year and a half I've owned it before all this started.

Going through the book and from tidbits in other threads, I'm starting to lean toward a new distributor, which isn't the one I'm supposed to have. According to the Chilton's, my distributor is for 90-91 models, not the 87-89 models. I'm basing that off where the air gap gets checked. The distributor passes all the checks, but there is some oil inside the housing, not sure if that could be my issue. There are a couple holes in the bottom of the housing that look like they're drain holes, so maybe a lil is normal? I was contemplating disassembling the distributor and cleaning it all up.

EFI relay was fine, check engine light comes on when the key is on. I have a few more checks to to look at also that weren't in the book, but I found in other threads here. Once I find them again that is.

One thing I noticed and it's had me thinking because I know they can be an issue with the older cars that run off points and that would be the condenser. The book says nothing about it and I haven't noticed it mentioned here at all. Anyone think that could be an issue in this setup?

Oooh! One other thing and I know it's bad, but I don't think I hurt anything. When it died and wouldn't start I thought MAF because I had similar issues with a 91 I used to have and it was the MAF. I thought mine was bad because the resistance values didn't match the book on one set of terminals. The VC - E2 is listed as 3k-7k ohms for the 3S-FE, 200 - 400 ohms for the 2VZ-FE. I get a lil over 200 ohms on mine and 3 other MAFs from the junkyard, leading me to think the values are swapped in the book. Anyway, and this was prior to coming here, I pulled the screws out of the MAF and started to remove it, but quickly realized it wasn't right. I had it pulled out maybe an 1/8th of an inch and put it back. All the values are still correct and activating the door engages the fuel pump, so I don't think I've done any damage, but full disclosure to be safe. Off to clean up some grounds. Thank you everyone for your time and advice. I will keep ya posted.

Hi there. Did you. Where get your car up and running? I’m chasing the same issue!…

 

You may have damaged the AFM specifically the solder joints can be fixed if you cut/pry the plastic cover off. The manual and auto transmission ECU is the same for 1987 the difference is the engine harness, 5-speed version has no wiring for the NSS, transmission solenoids and the like. The auto transmission is controlled by a separate computer.

The distributor does have drain holes in it for whatever reason. A while back I bought a WAI GLOBAL dizzy on Rockauto because mine is leaking oil internally, the WAI distributor made the car run like crap, bad hesitation. I tried swapping the coil, different cap and wires didn't help so I'm going to repair the Toyota one. Maybe you'll have better luck.

 

You think the MAF would be bad even though it's testing good and it engages the fuel pump when the door is opened by hand? And that wouldn't affect the spark would it? Anyway, off to clean grounds. How would you test a ground? Put my negative on the ground and my positive on the battery and see if I get 12V? I'd rather check them before getting to crazy. Once she's running again I can take the time to go through it thoroughly.

 

How would you test a ground? Put my negative on the ground and my positive on the battery and see if I get 12V?

Check for voltage drop between 2 points.

Example: place one lead from your meter on the ground point and the other lead on the negative battery terminal.

I forget whats acceptable for voltage drop, but you're looking for a low mV (millivolt) reading.

 

Maybe the MAF is turning on the fuel pump but the resistor section is not working properly so the engine doesn't know how much fuel to meter. Just putting it out there, but you seem to have weak spark going by your description.

Testing things with an ohm meter is not always reliable because it uses extremely low current, putting more current though a circuit can cause it to fail. That's why you can't really test grounds with an ohm meter.

When I had the crank no start problem it acted exactly the same as your car, would fire randomly and if I cranked the dizzy all the way to the end of the adjustment engine would actually run for a few seconds then die. On the igniters having different part numbers don't think it matters, they are all the same.

 

Yeah, the '87 is funky and different than the rest of the gen2's. Also had an injector ballast resistor setup instead of the high impedance type found on the rest of the gen2's.

Oil in the distributor is a bad sign, and as '71 said, many aftermarket distributors are crap.

I'd still also suspect the AFM too, since removing those screws is a very big no-no. Cut it open and check for problems in there.

-Charlie

 

Yeah, the '87 is funky and different than the rest of the gen2's. Also had an injector ballast resistor setup instead of the high impedance type found on the rest of the gen2's.

You're the one that convinced me (not directly) to go with the more modern ECU and engine harness I'm now running one from a 06/1989 car. Very light throttle drivability is somewhat better but otherwise I don't notice a difference.

I may be sourcing another 5S-FE (it's JDM don't know the exact year) should I run those injectors with my 3S harness or keep using the 3S ones.

 

I'm hesitant to mess with the AFM because I did that nearly a month ago and the other night after adding the ground wire to the ignitor, it fired up and ran for about 10 mins before I killed it with the jumper trying to hurry and get it timed. I'm still getting all the correct readings at the terminals. I would think something would be off if I broke some solder points. But it's electricity and I'm well aware it does weird stuff sometimes. I'll try and source one from the junkyard and see what happens. It wouldn't surprise me that I am my issue with the car.

I cleaned the grounds on the tranny and intake. Alternator and batt to fender looked good. The one questionable one is the tranny to ignitor frame. It's rusted solid, so I'm going to clip it and run it to the other bolt that I could get out. I've scotch Brite'd the area of rust. I'm hoping that ground is my spark issue.

I asked about the condenser on the distributor earlier, any thoughts there? I've seen people struggle with their cars before, dumping money only to have it be that few dollar part the whole time.

 

On the gen3 Camry sometimes the dizzy condenser shorts out and blows a fuse, have not heard of that happening on the gen2 or it causing any issues but it's possible. If you can find a dizzy at the junk yard buy the whole thing, the coil will probably be bad but nice to have a spare, maybe to rebuild.

If it wasn't so cold I'd do a spark test and tell you want it's supposed to look like or take a video.

 

I had the WAI Global dizzy from RockAuto purchased for about $115 at the time. It worked great.

The old dizzy was too hard to rebuild on the ground in an apartment parking spot where your not allowed to work on your car.

 

So I went and picked up an AFM and 2 distributors from the junkyard. Will test the AFM shortly, but I came across something different with my distributor and I'm curious if anyone knows what the deal is. There is a capped off connector for a single wire, right by the condenser. The 2 I picked up have caps, but the one on my car, someone made a hole in the cap and there is a wire connected there. There's also a ground going to the screw for the condenser on mine that these 2 didn't have. I thought maybe something to with AT vs MT, but these came out of one of each. Here are some pics....

The top pic are the 2 I got today, the bottom is mine. Those 2 wire are coming out of the harness, so I have no idea what's going on there. Going to see what happens with the replacement AFM before I mess with the distributors.

 

I don't know what's going on with that wire hack, but either remove it or use one of the distributors you got at the junk yard or at least the wiring. They all should have that extra connector and cap. Do you normally have that PCV breather open like that or is the hose off just to change the dizzy.

...oh yea and don't assume the coils in the junk yard distributors are good. #1 failure point on these cars.

 

I removed the hose to get to the distributor. Those wires have me trippin' now because they come out of the harness, or at least appear they do, I'll try and see what they hook to. I know the one coil is bad out of the newer distributor, it's cracked. The other is intact and tests ok, so I was gonna try swapping. If that don't work I have the one I just bought that is in mine. Battery died so I have yet to try the AFM. Off to do that now. And find out what those wires are doing there.