I am a longtime car fanatic with an old Corvette in the garage next to my Avalon. I love internal combustion engines. But you know what? This climate crisis is real and we’re in for a terrible future if we don’t change our ways. Like right now. So good riddance to big V8s and the ICE in general. My two cars are very likely the last ICE-powered vehicles I’ll ever own.

 

The climate has been changing for millions and for thousands of years now.

 

Sorry for the stating the obvious if it wasn't already. If the Avalon was going to continue another generation, it certainly would not have the V6 anymore. If you like the feel of V6's and V8's and don't mind the fuel consumption, now is the time to get them before they all disappear.

Oh, but it will. As Lexus ES 350, which is basically the same car, except we’ll pay 60,000 for it 😂

 

Times be changing is all.

 

Chevrolet already dropped the V6 in their smaller trucks (Colorado). We're searching for a new Silverado for my wife, inventory with a V8 powertrain is a lot more challenging then I would have guessed. Honda dropped their V6 what, two years ago?

 

Can wife holdout till 2023 for the Silverado? The electric Silverado is supposed to be released in 2023, and it will have 4WHEEL steering!!! That will be awesome, in my book.

Add the increased EV rebate ($12,500) due to "Build Back Better", makes EVs more affordable! I don't need a pick-up as I don't tow or have a job that requires a pick-up (construction, landscaping, etc). But I would like one just because. The increased in EV subsidy sure makes getting one very tempting. However, the new EV subsidy does have a vehicle price cut off and income cut off. Hopefully you don't exceed either.

Gas GM trucks used to have 4wheel steering for a short period.

Autotrader - page unavailable

Too bad GM won't just make 4WS standard. Looks to be an option or possibly standard on top level trim.

Chevy Silverado EV Will Have Rear-Axle Steering

The first official look at the upcoming electric pickup shows its available 24-inch wheels and rear-axle steering that will help tighten its turning radius.

www.caranddriver.com

 

Unlikely to pass in it's current form.

8 big problems with Biden’s ‘Build Back Better’ bill

Even if House Speaker Nancy Pelosi twists enough arms for passage, prospects in the Senate remain dim as Sens. Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema have refused to endorse the bill.

nypost.com

 

It’s ironic that Toyota avoided mass production FI engines because they’re so damn good at it.


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Turbo 4s aren't the end of the world. The 2.0t engine in my 2021 Accord Touring is smooth and very powerful. It offers better performance the the 3.5L V6 that it replaced that was used in Accords until the 2.0t replaced it in 2018. It also is faster than the 3.5L V6 used in the current Camry.

It's not as buttery smooth as the 3.5L V6 in the Camry/Avalon, but it's fine for a mainstream midsize sedan. Very few engines in the automotive world are as smooth as Toyota's 3.5L V6... even among premium brands. It's a heck of an engine... but it's starting to get a bit long in the tooth, despite upgrades over the years. Turbo 4 engines seem to be the way of the future...

I'd even guess that up until the craziness of the pandemic, Honda was probably selling more 2.0t Accords than 3.5L Accords during the 2013-2017 generation (as a percentage of sales- you can't really compare raw numbers just because of the fact that SUVs have taken a larger and larger bite out of sedans sales overall in the past few years.

The larger take rate (which is a theory that I admit I don't have any data to support other than just seeming to see more 2.0t Accords on the road than I ever saw V6 Accords) might also be linked to the fact that Honda introduced a 2.0t Sport trim with the 2018 model year that was more affordable while still offering almost all of the features of the previous year EXL V6 with the exception of a "premium audio" system and leather seats. The 2.0t Sport trim has been very popular ever since they began offering it in 2018- much more popular than the EXL 2.0t (which was discontinued after 2020) and the Touring 2.0t trim levels.

Toyota is probably looking at this from a practical as well as an efficiency perspective. Sales of the Avalon are relatively low- which is why the model is being discontinued- despite Toyota trying to increase sales by offering more engine choices and even AWD. People just aren't into large sedans anymore. Similarly, despite the fact that the Camry continues to be a very popular midsize sedan, the number of people willing to plop down $35,000-$40,000 for a V6 is low. What percentage of Camrys are sold with the V6 option these days? Back in 2020, Car and Driver indicated that the V6 take rate was 6%. That's not a heck of a lot. I imagine that if Toyota came out with a smaller and possibly more affordable turbo four and offered in the Camry as a replacement for the V6- and did so at a price point that made the engine a bit more affordable for the masses- sales of the upgraded engine might increase.

It will be curious to see what Toyota does. The fact that the 3.5L V6 is so popular and used in so many models across both the Toyota and Lexus lineup will make the transition a bit harder. With all of that said- Maybe Toyota will go the route that Honda did. Honda is pushing turbo 4s with their cars and smaller SUVs but seems to be convinced that their V6 has a bit more life in it. The new Acura MDX still offers the V6... and in all likeliness the next generation Pilot will probably still have that V6 too. Honda isn't going to put an older V6 in an Acura and then give a newer and more advanced engine to its Honda sibling.

 

Turbo is highly unreliable, due to many elements and high pressure created.
They make sense for sports cars, because there’s only so much power you can add by increasing engine size before it simply gets too big. But for commuter cars? The only reason they are pushing it - better gas mileage. This is why you see it first of all on European models. Their gas prices are through the roof - in UK you’d pay 1.47 pounds per liter now, that’s equivalent of 8 dollars per gallon!
Yes, unfortunately it will be the trend of the future. In fact, they are getting rid of gas cars altogether. It’ll be all electric or hydro or - who knows? - solar and wind power. I understand why they are doing it, but it’s sad nonetheless. Our times are going away, new era coming. 😥

 

Turbo is highly unreliable, due to many elements and high pressure created.
They make sense for sports cars, because there’s only so much power you can add by increasing engine size before it simply gets too big. But for commuter cars? The only reason they are pushing it - better gas mileage. This is why you see it first of all on European models. Their gas prices are through the roof - in UK you’d pay 1.47 pounds per liter now, that’s equivalent of 8 dollars per gallon!
Yes, unfortunately it will be the trend of the future. In fact, they are getting rid of gas cars altogether. It’ll be all electric or hydro or - who knows? - solar and wind power. I understand why they are doing it, but it’s sad nonetheless. Our times are going away, new era coming. 😥

Where are you getting this theory that turbos are "highly unreliable"? Many carmakers have been using them for years- decades even. Every non-hybrid 10th Gen Accord has a turbo... and most Civics have come with turbos over that car's current and previous generation... where's the data that shows that they are failing in high number?

Since 2018 Honda has sold almost a million Accords... the vast majority of which have turbos. What percentage of those turbos have failed?

The theory of modern turbos being unreliable is just inaccurate... especially for brands that have a reputation for quality. I imagine that the turbos that have failed have more to do with a manufacturer using cheap parts from cheap sources (Ahem... GM/Ford/Hyundai) than anything else... and in those cases it's not necessarily the turbos that are unreliable per say- but rather the entire car.

 

The real reason why turbo I-4s are replacing V6s is they are lighter and cheaper to produce, which benefits the manufacturer, not the consumer. There are Toyota/Lexus, Nissan and GM V6s that get better gas mileage in real world (not EPA) driving than turbo I-4s. I've driven both and V6s are much smoother and pleasing to drive, which is why I have a V6 in my XT5 instead of an I-4 turbo. The turbo itself has a service life and the bearings inside it will eventually fail. A V6 without a turbo will not have that failure.

 

I think there is general agreement here if some details are ironed out:

• while it’s not so easy to generalize about turbo reliability since the entire powertrain and model as a whole needs to be considered, at the same time, "from a standpoint of complexity and the parts, and how much stress some components have, there’s definitely a chance for more things to go bad with these turbocharged engines,” Jake Fisher, director of auto testing at Consumer Reports. Source: Consumer Reports and another Consumer Reports reference here on turbos
• based on the above, from the same maker and class of engines, it is reasonable to assume that a version without turbos will be more long-term reliable than one with turbos. In Toyota's case, we need to also add the hybrid powertrain to the comparison. So for example, in the case of the 2022 Lexus NX, there is the NX250 (non-turbo), NX350 (turbo), NX350h (non-turbo hybrid), and NX450h+ (non-turbo plug-in). Most likely the NX250 will be the most reliable because it simply has less complexity and failure points. I am fascinated though to see how the new turbo does against the hybrid powertrain in regards to long-term reliability
• it will be interesting to see long-term reliability with Toyota's that have both a turbo and hybrid powertrain, such as the new Tundra
• an interesting side point on turbos, there's a cautious tone to turbocharging in this article, which rightly points out that turbo vehicles are more likely to be modified (coming from the BMW/VW/Audi world, I would say at least 50% of owners under the age of 30 have updated the ECU to boost hp, completely unscientific number, just a feeling), which increases the chances of long-term reliability issues

 

an interesting side point on turbos, there's a cautious tone to turbocharging in this article, which rightly points out that turbo vehicles are more likely to be modified (coming from the BMW/VW/Audi world, I would say at least 50% of owners under the age of 30 have updated the ECU to boost hp, completely unscientific number, just a feeling

Absolutley. The Fast & Furious crowd. 🤣

 

VW's have been all turbo for a few years now (right?). I suspect they are pretty reliable, but won't take abuse like an NA engine. I'm used to getting 300,000 to 400,000 miles on my daily driver in five years, I suspect those days are over for me. (well, after this Avalon,I hope)

 

VW and reliable don’t usually go together 😀. Even if their turbo’s are reliable, it would be small consolation, since by the end of 2021, they ranked 24 by Consumer Reports (meaning 23 makes were more reliable) which is pretty abysmal. Personal experience, I had a B6 Passat (2007), no problems with the powertrain, however just one example, the sun visor bulb went out, there is no way to change it without replacing the entire visor assembly, over $400 for parts only, crazy but true. Ok another example 😀, the rear middle foldout armrest that houses the trunk pass-through somehow broke even though I only opened it once or twice a year, the entire assembly needed to be replaced otherwise it wouldn't open, over $500 parts only. Hopefully things are better now but that was my last VW.

 

RX verified: 2023 Lexus RX Lineup To Get Three Hybrid Powertrains: Report

 

I thought Eyrope is phasing it diesel ever since VW Diesel crimes?

 

This thread has been moved to General Discussion as it has nothing to do with Avalons.
Also, tone down the political rhetoric or the thread will be closed.

 

Toyota is simply late to the game. Turbocharged gasoline engines have become norm in most developed markets. They are as reliable and last as old non-turbo engines. Virtually every new car sold in Europe these days is either turbo or EV.

Remember when Toyota introduced hybrid powertrain? Everybody was saying that they would be unreliable, the batteries would last only a few years, etc. Now, Prius is the most car you can buy.

It's only matter of good engineering. The real issue is that Toyota is 10 years behind competition and is now desperately trying to catch up.

 

Toyota is simply late to the game. Turbocharged gasoline engines have become norm in most developed markets. They are as reliable and last as old non-turbo engines. Virtually every new car sold in Europe these days is either turbo or EV.

Remember when Toyota introduced hybrid powertrain? Everybody was saying that they would be unreliable, the batteries would last only a few years, etc. Now, Prius is the most car you can buy.

It's only matter of good engineering. The real issue is that Toyota is 10 years behind competition and is now desperately trying to catch up.

It is even worse than that. Toyota tried 20 years ago to enter diesel market in Europe. It was failure of grand proportions.
Their 2.2 D-4D was literally disintegrating at 100k km. 1.4 which they got from Peugeot I think, had huge issues with diesel fuel that for example Peugeot did not. I was working back than as test driver for oil company and we tested these Toyota’s to determine what was the deal. It turned out they changed supply parts with uber sensitive common rail pump. Horrible quality. Same goes for 3.0 D-4D.
Then they just gave up, decided to get engines from BMW.
Problem for Toyota is that in the US gas is super cheap. That allowed them to milk out V6 naturally aspirated engines forever. Good business model, but they completely neglected downsizing.
Their V6TT is testament to that. I don’t know any company that had such failures at like 500mls out of dealerships. They supposed to take BMW B58 engine and slap it in new Tundra/Sequoia. They already using it in Supra.


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Ok, all posts with political topics have been removed and/or edited.
I have re-opened the thread so that the original topic can be further discussed.

Any more posts with political content will find the posts removed and the poster will receive a warning.

Please keep all politics out of the general forum.

Thank you.

 

This was unexpected, I mentioned in the OP that the next gen Highlander would nix the 6 cylinder, well Toyota decided to do it now for MY2023. This suggests the same might happen to the Camry/ES soon. If you like 6 cylinders, get ‘em while they last.

 

Toyota is 10 years behind the competition. They are like: "Thomas Edison: Let's electrify New York City. Toyota: Look, look, I sell improved candles."

 

The GR is a 20-year-old engine now too, it is long overdue for replacement regardless of whether that would be another V6 or a turbo-4

 

Big mistake that Toyota is putting an endemic 4 cylinder engine into a 4,600 lb. heavy vehicle like this. The 4 cylinder is going to be junk in these heavy vehicles.

 

Anyone remember the OG Previa, 138 hp carrying 3,700 lbs? It was an uphill nightmare, with a 0.037 power-to-weight ratio. I guess the new Sienna is much better at 0.052, but that's only when the hybrid system is fully charged.

 

Guys, hp doesn’t move these vehicles. Current HL is slug regardless how many hp it packs.
It is TORQUE that matters!!!
I4 will pack 309lb-ft at 1,500rpm compared to 266lb-ft at 4,700rpm in old V6.
But more importantly, new I4 has FLAT torque line from 1,500 to 4,000rpm while V6 peaks at 4,700rpm.
For example old V6 would lose in sight new I4 here in CO going uphill on I70 in about 2 minutes.


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so, how fast do you think this new Highlander would do 0-60 sec?
5.0?

The current Highlander AWD with 3.5 (4398 lb curb w.) per MT goes 0-60 in 6.8 sec. Some sources say 7.2-7.5 sec. Still, not bad at all.
The lighter 2022 NX350 AWD with 2.4t (275 hp. 317 lb.ft. 3987 lbs. curb w.) per MT 0-60 in 7.3 sec. For the record, CD stating 6.6. sec.
Fastest time is "bolded". Slowest is "underlined".

Let's say 6.6 sec for the NX350 is a correct time, but 300 lb heavier Highlander will be slower. How much slower? I'd say .3-.5 sec slower.
Fastest vs fastest and slowest vs slowest times - personally I don't see any noticeable difference...
The 3.5 runs great on recommended regular fuel.
For the NX350 with 2.4t Toyota recommends premium fuel, which is currently in my area .50 higher than regular...
The 2.4t might pull a bit better when in boost and mid to high RPM, but you going to pay for that at the pump.

 

0-60? Absolutely irrelevant!!!
20-60, 40-60, 40-80, that is what matters and that is all about torque!
It will pull in low rpms much, MUCH better than current V6. This V6 is dead at low rpms. At mid does something, just to prove it is alive, and then has very narrow torque range at very high rpms (which is OK for vehicle like Supra with stick shift, hypothetically).
I4 will do much better probably until 5,000rpms.
Since this is not BMW, I am expecting that is rpm when power will dramatically fall off. But, by then, it did everything it needs to do.


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Will the primary driver care how fast she gets from 0 to 60, or if she has to spend more at the pump when her husband pays the bill?

 

She looks like a Cayenne mom...
The Highlander auditory is not that rich...

 

The B5 is from yearly 2000's, VW force pushed the Passat into "premium" since the B6 and sales went down.
The 1st gen CC was even advertised as premium and competitor to Lexus, Merc and BMW.
I still have my doubt's about the 2.4t better usable torque, with turbo lag (and no way Toyota can eliminate it) instant with no delay turbo torque is an urban myth. Even german small turbo engines have lag, unless twin charged or have additional hybrid system.
Do you want an suv with practically no lag? Get a x5 with 3.0t.
Soccer mom's would more impressed with 20" screen or 7" sun vizor mirror that can take photos and upload them directly on facebook.

 

First B5 seen the light of the day at the end of 1995. B5.5 (life cycle improvement) was 2001.

CC was really good car. Transverse engine was IMO mistake. I would take it any day over Lexus. Though I am paying attention to IS500.

It will have some lag. It won’t be BMW, that is for sure, unless BMW gave them a hand. That is the part where I don’t get Toyota. They are already buying engines from them yet they allowed themselves that debacle with 3.5TT. If this is strictly Toyota thing, it will probably have some lag, no doubt and it will die after 5k rpms.

I had X5 35d. Had to get larger vehicle so got Sienna. But for dd purposes, skiing, taking kids to school, track, pretty much anything that doesn’t require big trunk, i use E90 328, stick of course


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