And the car drove fine since all those work were done?

The first fixed the symptom but not the cause. Sounds like the next mechanic is also having difficulty.

I’d do a current-draw measurement on the pump.

Also check the fuel tank is venting properly. Maybe a vacuum buildup is causing the pump to draw hard? Dunno.

Could be a relay problem also.

Also use an ohmmeter to check the wiring to see if there’s an intermittent break, but I think less likely at this point.

 

i think in the general sense for any car, for a diagnosis, it would generally be at least 1 garage hour - for any 1 given issue. so depending on your locale and your garage, that might be $90? to $130? USD per hour. other more knowledgeable forum members will probably be able to give you more specifics but generally electrical diagnosis can easily be hours where some mechanical issues can generally be figured out in the first hour, depending on how knowledgeable and experienced they are.

at the very least, i would agree with your coworker, if the mechanic is not experienced enough to work on the car but is willing to work on it, the refund of the new fuel pump should be sought and i would argue at least half reduction in labor price, if not all the labor. basically, you are paying for something that wasn't the root issue and you may want to re-clarify your consent/approval for work going forward.

do you know if your car has any check engine light (CEL) codes after the stalling?

 

Greetings,

Sorry to hear about the troubles w/ your Camry.

Yes, the mechanic should have made some basic voltage checks before replacing the fuel pump. In honesty, if the voltage was close, I also would have suspected & replaced the fuel pump up-front, if the [Fuel Pump] fuse was blowing.. On a 21 yr. old vehicle, a tired / internally shorting fuel pump motor would have been suspect here as well.

Here is some information that may be helpful:

The battery supplies (12 volt DC current) electrical power to start, and maintain running of the vehicle while in operation.

The battery itself cannot continuously supply the required electrical power while the vehicle's various electrical systems are under load: therefore, an alternator (also called a 'generator' in some vehicles) is needed to generate electrical power & charge the battery, while the vehicle is in operation.. It is a separate circuit from the issue you are having, but thought this information would be helpful.

The battery is connected to a main fuse box (typically in the engine compartment), where a series of Fuses and Relays distribute the battery voltage to the various electrical sub-systems in the vehicle.

The purpose of a Fuse is to (isolate) and protect the wiring and component(s) in a given electrical circuit: if, say, the fuel pump -did- have an internal electrical short, the flow of current through that circuit would increase greatly, which would heat up the component and wiring. Fuses are rated by the maximum [Amp]eres, or current flow, the fuse will allow - before failing. A 'blown fuse' or failed fuse means there is an issue with that particular circuit drawing too much current.

The purpose of a Relay is to electrically switch a circuit on or off, depending on need. The advantage of using a Relay is a low current electrical 'trigger' to the Relay can be used: the Relay, in-turn can supply a much larger electrical current to the component(s) energized by the Relay circuit.

For example, when you turn the key to the 'On' position, a main Relay is energized in the engine compartment, the [EFI] Relay.

When the engine computer (aka: ECU) detects the motor is spinning (by starter or running), the fuel pump [Circuit Opening] Relay is energized, supplying power to the fuel pump circuit.

Overall current flow (+) of the fuel pump circuit: (Battery) -> Main Fusible Link -> [EFI Fuse] -> { EFI Relay } -> { CIR OPN Relay } -> * Fuel Pump.

Current flow (+) Trigger of the fuel pump circuit: (Battery) -> Main Fusible Link -> FL BLOCK -> [AM2 Fuse] -> * Ignition Switch to (Run or Start) -> { CIR OPN Relay }.

Current flow (-) Trigger that completes the fuel pump circuit / turns the Fuel Pump on: FC line from ECU -> energizes the { CIR OPN Relay }.

==

You asked what "steps" should be taken to diagnose the issue.



All 'things electrical' start at the battery. The battery should be checked for condition & correct voltage output: the battery terminals should be cleaned and replaced if necessary, the Positive and Negative battery cables should be visually inspected and checked for correct voltage, the primary Negative battery ground connections should be cleaned / serviced.

* All electrical testing is predicated on correct voltage being supplied to the electrical system of the vehicle, something the service manuals typical omit to mention.

After that step, the diagnostic testing procedures in the field service manual (aka: FSM) should be followed by the technician, namely: testing the fuel pump for correct voltage and resistance, hooking up a fuel pressure gauge to the fuel line to verify / observe correct fuel pressure, performing electrical diagnostic / voltage checks at the EFI fuse, EFI Relay, AM2 Fuse, Ignition Switch, CIR OPN Relay.

==


Remember I mentioned above that the ECU energizes the Fuel Pump circuit when it detects the motor is spinning. In most modern vehicles, the engine's Crank Sensor is the component typically used to detect when the motor is turning ("NE Signal" at ECU) . The ECU will then, in-turn, energize the Fuel Pump circuit.

The engine Crank Sensor, associated connector(s) & wiring should -also- be inspected for any issue as well.

I hope the information is helpful to you.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to reply. Yes, CamryFL, I really appreciate the added information. I truly enjoy learning the how-to's. I'm feeling overwhelmed with the decision on what to do next with the car. Part of me wants to just get rid of it (literally donate it to a program like Donate-A-Car Canada - they could share any profits w/St. Vincent de Paul). Pretty painless procedure - have used it twice over the years.



The car has nearly 260,000 km now and two struts need work, the oil leak is getting worse and the windshield need replacing So the gamble of asking this particular mechanic to keep going feels dicey. He was more than hinting that the car has major issues (a lot of rust, too.. all true). maybe it gave him a headache, too. Locally, similar cars in my area are only getting around $1000 and they're cars that are running. Oh, and JohnGD, my car is not running at all. They can't get the motor to keep going.. blows fuses even after a short drive around the block near their shop.



I have new tires on the car so need to remove those, maybe put the winters back on (one season left on those). I live in a small apartment so there's no room to be storing or working on the car myself (removing anything of value if I decide to get rid of it). Just thinking aloud as I type this reply, so just bear with me.


well, who knows what clarity a good sleep will bring. Maybe I'll try that and see what the mechanic says tomorrow.


Much appreciated, as always, TN friends. I really was impressed with this car but perhaps it's time to 're-home' it and start saving up for something else. The one thing I really disliked was the very low hanging exhaust system. What's with that design? Totally brutal on any backroads (for hiking).


Okay, back to 'goodnight'!

 

Sounds like the car is not worth much at all even if it is running. Biggest issue is rust. Worn out parts can be replaced but, rust complicates and raises the price. If a fuel line or, brake line was to rust out the cost to repair that could be hundreds. The fact that the problem is that the fuel pump circuit is blowing a fuse says there is a short or, high electrical resistance in that circuit. That can be caused by a few things and since a new pump did not fix it, that is not one of them. That leaves the wiring, and relays. Sometimes electrical issues like this are difficult for even seasoned techs. to solve. However, that year/model fuel pump system is not all that complicated. There are 2 relays in that circuit that can fail and cause this. The relays are relatively not expensive at all. They could both be replaced for way less that one hour's worth of diagnostic time. It is easy to test the wiring from the pump to the fuse/relays and easy to confirm the pump has a good ground connection. I am an ASE certified tech., if that makes a difference in how your perceive my opinion. Ask the shop if they tried known good relays and checked the wiring for shorts. Hope you get this resolved without too much more pain.

 

Sometimes a mechanic's best efforts result in a guess diagnosis that a new part might solve. However that part should be free if it fails to solve - that's why we pay them $75 per hour.

If it is the fuel pump circuit I would wire it directly from the battery (with inline fuse) and let the car idle for an extended period and see if it stalls. If not then you know where to go from there.

 

What's the status of the alternator? More below.

If you were in SoCAL, I would have purchased this Camry from you no questions asked besides whether it's a 5SFE w/CAL emissions with the assumption that the rusting is superficial.

Don't donate this car. Car donation does not work like most people would like to think. Very little goes to good causes. Since it's not without issues, it will go to a flipper like me.

I am speaking from experience as a helper for dealers in my area. They purchase a lot of vehicles from "Cars for Veterans" kind of places. I am yet to see 1 car go to a veteran from these "Cars for Veterans" kind of places in my 2 years of exposure. They are all purchased by flippers and dealers. The bulk of the cost goes to the auction house as fees. What happens to the tens of dollars the auction house has left over after the fees and paperwork costs? I don't know but I do know $10 does not buy anyone a car.

Most people donating cars to these "Cars for Veterans" kind of places think these cars go to the needy. LOL.

See if someone on this forum will buy it from you as I am not alone.

You have been plagued by part exchangers - diagnosing fuel pump issues has a defined set of steps, which in this case were not followed.

The shop has been ethical so far - they have refunded you all costs to do with the fuel pump. Whether they refund you a portion of the labor is your negotiation but that's a call they will make to have you as a satisfied customer.

Just because the mechanic is incompetent/did not know what they were doing does not mean they did not spend time. They did not put a gun to your head to bring the car to them, so it was your decision to do business with them.

Unless they said they would not charge you a dime if your issues were not fixed, you do owe them labor - that's just how it works.

Have they charged you storage fees?

Most shops won't be in business if they followed a "won't charge a dime unless your issues were fixed" model. The level of skilled mechanics they would have to hire would make their labor very very expensive. I offer this feature to my clients but I focus on these 5SFEs almost exclusively. I don't offer this to my clients who owns BMWs or Fords for example.

Questions:

1. Does the issue happen only when the car is warm/has been driven for a while or can happen on cold start too?
2. What was the fuel level when the car died? Does it die when level above 1/2 or near empty?
3. Does the battery and alternator check out?
4. Is the battery very hot to the touch when the car dies?

From your description of blowing fuses I suspect your AVR has died and the stators are sending out a large amount of current OR your battery is going bad which is causing the AVR to glitch (it needs B+ reference to work properly).

Did you/shop ever need to jump the car?

Can you please try out #3 and let us know?

If you don't have time or a way to test alternator, check the B+ (battery plus) value. Should be 13+ when running but no more than 15 and atleast 12 at cold.

My advise is this: keep spare, known good parts like alternators, starters, NSS, TB with you so you can swap them in when the time comes to look at later, say on the weekend. For the hundred of dollars in shop fees, you could have purchased a lot of these parts. This is regardless of what car you drive.

 

Don't donate this car. Car donation does not work like most people would like to think. Very little goes to good causes. Since it's not without issues, it will go to a flipper like me.

I am speaking from experience as a helper for dealers in my area. They purchase a lot of vehicles from "Cars for Veterans" kind of places. I am yet to see 1 car go to a veteran from these "Cars for Veterans" kind of places in my 2 years of exposure. They are all purchased by flippers and dealers. The bulk of the cost goes to the auction house as fees. What happens to the tens of dollars the auction house has left over after the fees and paperwork costs? I don't know but I do know $10 does not buy anyone a car.

Most people donating cars to these "Cars for Veterans" kind of places think these cars go to the needy. LOL.

Pretty much right on. Yea, the money will go to a good cause, but they don't tell you how much really goes to it. You'll have better luck selling the car yourself and then donate the money...then a little bit more will go to the cause :grin:

My uncle 'donated' the car...1998 Corolla. It was pretty beaten up interior wise but presentable outside, but it had a terrible misfire. Went to the Kidney foundation. Someone picked it up, gave it the quick 'costco' make over with the heavy duty floor mats, new wipers, cleaned the interior (real good) and detail the wheels and alloys. Still had the hole in the carpet and misc though. Recharge the AC with probably the walmart quick taps and called it good. They probably fixed the misfire issue, I think was just a leaky valve cover causing oil soaked spark plugs. Heck, the headlight was STILL out on it too! Sold it for $1800 OBO on craiglist. Some poor soul bought it and then was trying to sell it because the power steering pump went out as I saw it a few weeks later on craiglist. I saw it a few times around still after a year, looked the same but probably the AC stopped working because they had the windows all down lol.

Now how much did the foundation made off the car? I highly doubt the car sold for much at the auction given the issue. The only person who really made out was the car flipper IIMO.

 

Hi all. A quick reply as I'm at work and about to bike over to auto shop within the hour. Printed off some of the suggestions that were posted (thank you) so I can at least use them for discussion points. So hard to have a conversation when I wasn't clear on what questions to ask but armed with all your added info at least there's hope.



To answer a couple of question, I'd fueled up with gas the night before (gauge was well below 1/2 tank/same station I normally use). The car stalling happened only twice but within 10 minutes of each other. Mechanic still has car (it was towed to his business last Thurs. evening and they don't work weekends). They'd tried to find the problem on Friday then by late afternoon, just before closing, they said they needed to order fuel pump. Monday and Tuesday were 'fuel pump and wiring' days. I stopped by yesterday and that's when the mechanic offered to remove the new pump and asked if I was wanting them to continue because it can be really difficult (and expensive) to find the fix. I do understand the risk and going forward will be more involved with each step. Their fuel pump diagnosis sounded like they'd 'found the problem' so I wasn't anticipating going backwards on the fix. .. it wasn't a 'let's try this' situation at the time.



I don't have tools or knowledge to be doing any of this on my own; I also live in an apartment so working outside on any significant repairs (with help) wouldn't be doable. Nor is long term storage waiting on a potential buyer. All night long I was pondering all these options and now I'm back to deciding on one last gamble. And gee, I sure hope it's a logical choice. I have no issue with the mechanic and as I've said, their business is highly recommended and respected, so that's adding to my decision to trust one last time.


I only have extras of wipers, necessary fluids etc, as that's all my budget allows, but having extra main parts would be helpful - I agree. Just not in this lifetime.



Okay, off to find my bike helmet, then a rabbit's foot, shamrock, rosary...

 

Just about heading out the door ... yes, if the car was running then I'd feel a bit more comfortable in selling it but with all the present issues it just seemed like a nightmare and a situation where someone would be asking me to pay them to take it away. . If I could get it fixed then at least that option would seem more doable to me. I much prefer having a choice. Get it fixed, and THEN start the search for another vehicle. Thanks! Gotta get bikin'.

 

Camry enthusiasts would buy it even if not running. Some of us could tow it home and run the diags and either part it out as needed or dump in new parts and have a daily driver for the next several years. Even if the engine were seized and dead dead, just a 1-2k fix when we do it ourselves. And those with storage space love them some parts cars. Good luck to you! I know it is frustrating when it is your only car and you have limited options to fix it or figure it out yourself.


EDIT:


A guy is looking for parts from a 1997 Camry:


I need some parts that are currently next to impossible to find in Canada


Toyota doesn't makes these parts anymore...



This is what I need...


1997-2001 Camry or 1998-2003 Solara V6 5-Speed shifter assembly and linkages.


I'm willing to buy anywhere from North America.



https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...1996-1997-2001-1st-gen-solara-1999-2003/1609042-4th-gen-camry-3sgte-swap-5.html

 

I just re-read some of the main discussion above.

Rust is the killer. If the car has rust problem and needs a new windshield and miscs stuff, sometimes easier to cut your lost and spend a small amount of a lower miles Gen4 Camry. Sometimes its not just worth fixing it if the body is rusted out and good luck with the suspension bits as they are probably just as rusted out.

Camry enthusiasts would buy it even if not running. Some of us could tow it home and run the diags and either part it out as needed or dump in new parts and have a daily driver for the next several years. Even if the engine were seized and dead dead, just a 1-2k fix when we do it ourselves.

Don't...temp..me...in...buying...another....Camry.

https://honolulu.craigslist.org/oah/cto/d/2001-toyota-camry-xle-v6/6694528932.html

Never done an engine swpa though.

 

Huge difference in the amount of road salt used in NH and NM. The NH car is probably only good for the parts that are not rusted out.

 

Biked to shop, mechanic wasn't able to chat but I shared some snippets of discussion from this thread with them. They've been respectful and professional throughout and so have I so if sharing my 'list' counts as quirky, oh well - gotta be creative at times.


Btw, the body of the car has very little rust, only minimal around some of the locks but certainly no significant rust on the upper body. The rust mentioned is underneath the car (heavy road salt use in my neck of the woods).


Once the car is repaired (trying to convince the Universe there's no 'if' allowed on this one), I'll make a concerted effort to save $$ for a new-to-me vehicle. At least it'll give me a bit of time to get the word out, place a few 'wanted' ads of my own etc. Will continue to use my bike as often as possible.

I'll stay in closer touch with the shop for 'round 2'. I was used to neighbours and backyard mechanics up to this point so the process has been eye-opening (quotes etc).



I was at work (outreach with our city's homeless), listening to issues a particular client was experiencing. Was heartbreaking. At one point he described how painfully cold he was after the utility company turned off the heat (we've had unseasonably cold weather already) and that he'd resorted to using a toaster for heat, sneaking an extension cord out into the shared hallway. For some reason the toaster kept making the bldg's smoke alarms go off so now the manager is threatening to evict him. The image of this man having to depend on toaster elements for survival just kills me, and it won't leave my thoughts today.



In the days ahead I am going to be focused on gratitude. Gratitude for having a vehicle (and bike).. older car or not... my part-time job that allows an option for repairs... a safe apartment as refuge from stressful times, and yes.. gratitude for basic heat..


Thank you for assisting me in such a kind and patient manner throughout the thread/discussion. You are all sincerely appreciated.



I'll update the final solution, when we reach that point (fingers crossed).

 

Body rust is manageable, just an eye sore generally. It's the underside rust that is the cancer. If the frame has weak spots then it is a danger in an accident. The suspension parts and other type bolts that need to be turned to repair things may be (probably are) rusted up such that 'breaking' them means, well, breaking them. Can be a huge pain. In those salt laden areas it is good to keep washing the underside and consider a coating when possible to help some.

I like your outlook and attitude. Good work you appear to be doing there in our neighbor to the North.

 

Today's update: Day off, hadn't heard from the mechanic since Wed.. so biked over after a refreshing ride on the river trails. Mr. Mechanic showed me the diagrams he was working with and what he'd tried so far toward this elusive wiring problem. He's at the point of having to work deep into the engine (my wording) - junction connector? - and it's looking nowhere near being solved. He was very professional and not trying to get rid me of me, but more than hinted a few times that I may not want to go any further with this. He also offered an option for me to 'bring in' anyone that I felt might be able to help me out. I could feel his frustration as he sincerely wanted the car to work for me but 'miracle worker' isn't on his resume either. Suggested that I could probably get $500-$1000 for the car, if it was running (same as what I'd been estimating). But who knows.



So, as they are closed over the weekend, Mechanic #1 said for me to take my time, no rush, and to let them know what I'd like to do. I said I was going to contact a particular fellow I knew in town (mobile mechanic who also does salvage on cars - for free, but you don't get paid anything). Mechanic friend #2 has agreed to stop by mechanic #1's shop on Monday. I imagine he'll just check a few things with the car out in the parking lot or whatever. I know it's a bit unorthodox but oh well, as long as both professionals are on board with the plan I'll accept it, with appreciation for their efforts. Looking totally 'not to be' at this point, and I'm okay with that now. Will have to wait and see what Monday brings.

 

His shop is too far away to be helpful for you, but South Main Auto on YouTube could solve your problem. Really sharp guy--in the salty roads area.

 

Thank you Mergatroyd, definitely an interesting YoutTube channel. I'll have to follow his videos - he reminds me of the mechanic I'm working with. Yeah, BC is a tad far away from NY.

 

Hi all, A follow up question: Mechanic #2 stopped by the other mechanic's shop after work today. He worked on my car (out in the back lot/parking area) for at least two hours. Managed to track the wiring issue down to the coil packs (hope I'm remembering that part correctly). The 15 amp fuse no longer blows so that's an improvement! But, BOTH coil packs blow at the same time so that has Mech.#2 concerned more - sort of a 'symptom' vs 'cause' issue, if I understand correctly. We had to finish because it was getting dark and had gone on longer than both of us had planned for after full work days.
Both mechanics shared the schematics and the data pages from that online site 'you guys' have access to, I imagine.



Anyone here have ANY ideas that I can share with him, please? He knows I was racing home to pose another question here, and he was going to go through diagrams and do research, too. Thank you.

 

Hi all, A follow up question: Mechanic #2 stopped by the other mechanic's shop after work today. He worked on my car (out in the back lot/parking area) for at least two hours. Managed to track the wiring issue down to the coil packs (hope I'm remembering that part correctly). The 15 amp fuse no longer blows so that's an improvement! But, BOTH coil packs blow at the same time so that has Mech.#2 concerned more - sort of a 'symptom' vs 'cause' issue, if I understand correctly. We had to finish because it was getting dark and had gone on longer than both of us had planned for after full work days.

Which fuse was blowing?

AIUI: the fuel pump is on the EFI circuit (15A) and the ignition coils are on AM2 (30A).

If my car was regularly blowing the EFI fuse, I would use an ammeter to measure the amps on that circuit:

1) Measure with ignition ON but engine off
2) Measure with engine running
3) Compare both readings to a known-good car to see if your "steady state" current draw is unusually high, or if the fuse is getting blown by an intermittent current spike
4) If steady state, see if you can isolate the current hog using the ammeter
5) If intermittent, see if you can trigger the failure by e.g. wiggling/tapping wiring harnesses, rocking the vehicle, gunning the engine

The ECU is also on EFI, so if the fuse is getting blown it probably isn't able to retain any trouble codes related to the failure.

 

Thank you for the reply and information, StillLearning. Sorry I can't personally clarify or respond to your questions as it's over my head at this point. I will share it all with Ben (Mechanic #2), of course!

 

What does both coil packs blow mean?

 

- go to a REAL mechanic

- mickey mouse mechanic=mickey mouse results

- a real mechanic will DIAGNOSE the problem, not 'guess' or 'hope'

- a n00b/MM mechanic will 'throw parts at it'

- try to ask around for someone reputable







.

 

Hi. Both these gentlemen are 'real' mechanics. The first one has a great reputation (long time business in our city, too). The only reason he stopped with this diagnosis is because it was looking like it may be quite intensive (labour-wise) and as a consideration to my budget. He'd still be working on it if I wanted him to be doing so. It was totally my call. 2nd fellow offered to take a look at it for me (he normally just salvages vehicles). So I don't feel taken advantage of by either of them, quite the opposite actually. Mechanic #1 freely offered up his schematics and shared what he'd already done with the car to Mechanic #2.. he didn't have to, I felt that was above and beyond. If and when I can afford a new-to-me car I will have every confidence in bringing it there, for a pre-sale inspection. But of course this has to be after I win the lottery.


Toyophone - sorry for my lack of explaining this; I am a true newbie, just learning as I go. Last night we were out in a parking lot for 2.5 hours after my work day (and his), working on the car (well, mechanic was working, I was watching) but of course I didn't know most of what he was attempting to do, why, or how. When I know more, my comments and questions will hopefully make more sense. Thanks for the patience.

 

I'm the "mobile mechanic" working on this particular car. And I'm actually red seal automotive and have been running my own side company for the past ten years specializing in electrical installations and repairs. So I'm not just some backyard hack *cough*Blackness*. I decided to help out because the problem is so crazy and I'm so damn intrigued.

Hear me out on some of the facts and I'd love to hear some guesses


The first shop suspected the fuel pump because reasons...and replaced it to no avail, then put the original back in. He then started digging and tracing until he reached the time feasibility vs car value factor.

The car has now reached the point where it pops the efi fuse as soon as the ignition is turned on. It also pops the 5A IGN fuse instead if certain relays and plugs are disconnected. ( I can't remember which combo he said)

This is where I took over and had a quick look in the parking lot last night after a long day.

I could not recreate the 5A ignition fuse situation so I focused on the obvious short to ground in the EFI line.
If I remove the EFI relay it is fine. I put it back in and it pops the fuse (ignition on)
So there is a short somewhere in the efi circuit after the relay. After 2 hours and some exploratory surgery I discovered that the short to ground disappears when I unplug both the ignition coils.

I seem to recall one of you saying the the coils are on the AM2 circuit and not EFI. But...According to the schematic...just after the EFI relay the B-R wire heads to the fuel pump area, but it also branches off into a B-Y wire....actually 4 of them, 2 go to heated O2 sensor circuits, one powers the ECM, and one goes.....surprise surprise...back to B-R and on to pin 1 of both the ignition coils.

It's a huge breakthrough.....but still baffling. If it was a single coil I would suspect and replace it. However this is both coils, same reading to ground on the B+ line, and it goes away when they are both unplugged.

So here I am. Any thoughts?

 

I'm the "mobile mechanic" working on this particular car.

Any thoughts?

- Yes. Take the car to a REAL mechanic and not a 'mobile mechanic' asking the internet for help

- Seriously. A man who can afford his own garage (ie, NOT a 'mobile mechanic') can afford his OWN garage because he has the proper experience to diagnose a car

- I am being 100% sincere in saying that the OP's problem is due to going to 'mechanics' who lack proper diagnostic skills, REAL mechanics are not 'stumped'....

- I'll say it again: anyone can loosen and tighten bolts... a true mechanic FINDS THE PROBLEM FAST...

- OP, please just ask around for a REPUTABLE shop in your area

 

You know those amazing movie scenes where the unexpected reinforcements appear on the horizon, just in the nick of time? I'm thinking that maybe your explanation makes a bit more sense than mine? LOL... (thank you so very much).

 

Check for a short in the coils themselves.

 

wow, those are pretty harsh words, from the internet, to the man who is personally diagnosing the car and is coming here for input

Blackness, I'd say that you are lashing out at someone who is trying to help.

 

Check for short to ground in black/yellow wire from efi main relay. The black/red and black/yellow wire both get power from the EFI main relay when it is energized. The black/ yellow wire goes to a connector or, splice that feeds the coils. At that connector the wire is black/yellow in and black/red out. That could be your short to ground. Shows connection J/C 25 right side of dash. Probably near ecm. Ensure both coils have good ground.