Toyota could make plenty of money charging people for transmission fluid changes. If they say it doesn't need to be touched, I trust them.

 

Most likely your older Toyota did not use synthetic transmission fluid, a 30K mile change interval was a good idea.

With the new synthetic trans fluid, and the "sealed" design, you can go way more than 30K without a fluid change. Whether you should go past 100K is debatable, but wait until then and then revisit the situation.

One of the concerns is that, if not done correctly, changing it can be far worse than never changing it, especially since the new synthetic fluids don't "burn" up (but they can get dirty).

 

 

A few basic facts:
—All gearboxes (automatic transmissions like ours are still full of gears) shed metal particles, particularly during their early life (wear in or break in).
—Those particles increase the wear rate of the gearbox unless they’re removed.
—Other wear debris (like from clutches) also increase wear rates.
—The A/T filters aren’t normally super fine-filtering. They mostly prevent relatively large particles entering the tranny.
—Dirt ingress can be a significant contributor to wear in any gearbox.
—Auto manufacturers have a financial interest in making their cars appear to need extremely little or no maintenance.

Those are the main factors in play here. You can see that some of those factors support an early fluid exchange, followed by much longer drain intervals thereafter. Others support the notion of a ‘sealed’ transmission that has no routine maintenance scheduled.

What to do is a choice, and like all choices, there are trade-offs. The trade-offs here will almost certainly not make a drastic or stark difference in the ownership experience of a new car buyer, because very few of those keep a car until it wears out entirely. They either sell or crash long before that happens.

Toyota’s choice is to recommend that the ‘average’ customer in this market not change the fluid. One of the dealers you apparently talked to chooses to recommend very frequent fluid changes. Note that they have a financial interest in trying to generate more business for their service department. That’s an additional factor separate from the above list.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

 

You DO NOT want to flush out those particles if they are in there. Often times doing so/flushing and removing them can cause transmission slip issues and then you're f'd.

 

To the discussion of whether WS ATF is “synthetic” or not:
Very few automotive ATF specifications include a base oil type requirement. They are overwhelmingly performance specs. However the formulator or blender meets the performance requirements is up to them. That said, sometimes the performance specs force the use of certain base oil classes. I think the main point here is that whether WS is “synthetic” or not is irrelevant. What’s relevant is what performance WS requires.



This is absolutely wrong, and displays a marked ignorance of machinery and wear mechanisms.

 

Most transmissions have a magnet at the bottom to collect metal shavings. In addition, the have a "screen/filter" to trap larger particles in the fluid from being pumped from the pan to the rest of the transmission. Unless the pan is dropped to clean the magnet and filter, merely draining the fluid will not help all that much with regard to getting rid of any metal particles.

 

If the fluid is "super long life", I would change it whether by drain-and-fill or filter change at either 100,000 miles or 150,000 miles. Probably 150,000 miles because Toyota does not say to do it. I would have more peace of mind getting it changed than "driving it for the lifetime of the car" because to me the "lifetime of the car" is "until the day I die". It's your choice in the end. To me, that "lifetime" just means your change interval is much further than older cars.

 

Pretty sure Toyota WS is not synthetic.

 

My mistake, it is not 100% synthetic.

According to information I have seen, Toyota WS is a semi-synthetic base fluid, with a proprietary additive package. So WS is much less prone to "burning" compared to older transmission fluids that required a 30K drain and fill interval. WS does get dark due to dirt, but usually not that burnt smell found in older fluids when it gets too old.

 

Thanks for the replys keep em coming I wanna hear more about you guys keeping your cars long time with original trans fluid ! So If todays transmission fluid is made to outlast the older models then its best not to change being that old once ran 15 years 300k plus with original fluid this should be a no brainer but time will tell.

 

Assuming the current Toyota ATF is still WS (CVT I believe use different fluid), I would still change it. Like I said earlier, I'd say that because there is no interval I would just make the change interval longer than "normal".
My 2008 Camry ATF Maintenance:

• 50,000 miles
  • Drain & fill
• 100,000 miles
  • ATF strainer
  • ATF strainer o-ring
  • ATF pan gasket
  • Drain & fill
• 150,000 miles
  • Drain & fill
• 200,000 miles
  • ATF strainer
  • ATF strainer o-ring
  • ATF pan gasket
  • Drain & fill
• etc.

What I might do with a new Camry:

• 75,000 miles
  • Drain & fill
• 150,000
  • ATF strainer
  • ATF strainer o-ring
  • ATF pan gasket
  • Drain & fill
• 225,000 miles
  • Drain & fill
• 300,000 miles
  • ATF strainer
  • ATF strainer o-ring
  • ATF pan gasket
  • Drain & fill
• etc.

Do it, don't do it, waste of time, waste of resources, it's up to you. To me the "un-needed maintenance" that used to be "common maintenance" doesn't change that it used to be or still is a wear item. I have more peace of mind changing it than not changing it. I try to plan for the long term so this also means that I plan to keep a car for as long as possible. I ain't the type to trade it in every five years. Until the day they weld the transmission pan, drain plug, oil pan, engine head, engine and transmission mating, I am still gonna do maintenance.

 

Performance standards are what are measured to reach a spec. Whether is petroleum, syn blend, or 100% synthetic really has no effect if something meets a spec. I haven't studied trans fluids very much but in engine oil there are some petroleum oils that out perform some synthetics. Just because its petroleum or synthetic doesn't mean its good or bad for a given spec, its the formula to get to that spec. You can argue that in general synthecs last longer than petroleum because they are more resistant to heat and breakdown, but its still about the formula.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

 

Yes and no. In general if they meet the same spec, a synthetic is a better choice. They don't break down as quickly because they handle heat better. BTW, I rebuild them and have been doing so for years.

 

The WS fluid in the 2007-2017 Camry 6 speeds and 2018-19 Camry 8 speeds actually deteriorates faster than the fluid in the old 3 and 4 speeds. That's because the fluid in these transmissions runs hotter (180-190 degrees F) and because all the constant gear changing generates more wear debris. And because the WS fluid is much thinner, it doesn't prevent wear as well as the older Type T-IV and Dexron III fluids. So it's even more important to change the WS fluid every 30,000 miles or so. Here's a tutorial (in Russian, unfortunately) that shows the Camry 4 cylinder 8 speed is not sealed and how to drain and refill roughly 3.3 quarts of WS fluid:

 

...Here's a tutorial (in Russian, unfortunately) that shows the Camry 4 cylinder 8 speed is not sealed and how to drain and refill roughly 3.3 quarts of WS fluid...

If you open the video in a separate browser, you can turn on closed caption and then in settings (gear icon to the right of "CC") you can change the language to English and read the captions in English. Video is in post #20.

 

AISIN, the company that makes Toyota automatic transmissions, advises owners to change the fluid as often as every 2 years or 12,000 miles if they are interested in maximum shift smoothness, maximum fuel economy and longest transmission life. I personally think a 30,000 mile change interval is a reasonable compromise between every 12,000 miles and never changing.

 

AISIN, the company that makes Toyota automatic transmissions, advises owners to change the fluid as often as every 2 years or 12,000 miles if they are interested in maximum shift smoothness, maximum fuel economy and longest transmission life. I personally think a 30,000 mile change interval is a reasonable compromise between every 12,000 miles and never changing.

That screenshot has been posted here several times, but a) you won't find that statement anywhere on the Aisin website, b) we don't know how old it is, and it could pre-date the current "lifetime" sealed transmissions, and c) it's second-hand and could've easily been taken out of context.

Again, Toyota has a good track record and no good reason to pretend fluid changes aren't needed if they were recommended by the manufacturer. For one they are losing money on fluid changes, and secondly, transmissions failing at 100K miles tends to push people to other manufacturers.

 

I've never seen a true sealed transmission. Either there is an access port or inspection port on the bottom side of the transmission or the filter and pan can be removed and replaced.

 

As I explained above, when they say "sealed" they mean that there are no active openings through which oxygen (and moisture) can enter the transmission once everything is put together. Engineers have determined that by not having a dipstick, etc, they can make the transmission fluid last a lot longer (along with improvements in fluid base stock and additive packages).

 

There have to be vents, otherwise seals would blow out as pressure builds inside the case as the fluid heats up. The 8-speed in the 4-cylinder Camry isn’t sealed in any sense of the word.

 

I think we need a definition of sealed and sealed.

• Sealed
  • Minimal openings for oxygen and moisture to get through
• Sealed
  • No openings for anything to get through

Lets not mix up the definitions.

 

I think we need a definition of moisture contaminated transmission fluid.

In a dipstick equipped transmission, is it physically possible for condensation moisture to accumulate in 180-190 degree automatic transmission fluid?

Throughout automotive history, has anyone ever identified condensation moisture as being a significant contaminant that accumulates in automatic transmission, power steering, manual transmission and rear differential oil?

 

Can we just close this thread and determine that really no one knows or has proven one way or the other definitively that these systems should or should not be changed?

I've seen people that change their tran fluid regularly every 30k get slips and lose them at 100k
I've seen people that do nothing and run their crap ragged and lose them at 100k

I've seen people that change theirs and get long life out of their trans.
I've seen people that do absolutely nothing run their crap ragged and their trans keeps on trucking.

 

Can we just close this thread and determine that really no one knows or has proven one way or the other definitively that these systems should or should not be changed?

I've seen people that change their tran fluid regularly every 30k get slips and lose them at 100k
I've seen people that do nothing and run their crap ragged and lose them at 100k

I've seen people that change theirs and get long life out of their trans.
I've seen people that do absolutely nothing run their crap ragged and their trans keeps on trucking.

It's just one of many threads that has popped up since the cars were avaiable to the public . Just do what you think is right unless the mechanic is able to convince you with logic and fact.

 

It's indisputable the fluid of the 6 and 8 speeds looks like this after only 31-35,000 miles and it smells like 100,000 mile fluid too because of the oxidation caused by high fluid operating temperatures (180-195 degrees) vs 158-176 degrees for the older 4 and 3 speeds). Also indisputable that the 6 speed generates so much wear debris Toyota found it necessary to install 4 magnets in the transmission oil pan and install a large paper element transmission oil filter instead of a small metal mesh filter screen as was used on the older 4 and 3 speeds.

)

 

I did it in my '13 Tacoma. I did it at around 100,000km and worked like charm. Didn't plan on doing it again after, wanted fresh fluid after the break in was complete. The trick is, if you've let it go too long, don't bother changing it, leave it! You can plug up the veins in the transmission with debris and cause more problems than it's worth.

 

I've been in middle of similar discussions before.

Interestingly, one guy from CANADA noted that his owners manual (for a 2007 Lexus ES350) called for changing the ATF at (IIRC) 90,000 -or- 100,000 kilometers. That's not in the manual for my ES, but it is, to me, very telling.
Toyota/Lexus wants to keep perceived ownership costs down, and since the average new car owner does not keep his car long, when the transmission chickens come home to roost, generally, the original owner is Long Gone, and could care less (but only if he tried).
My opinion: Change the fluid if you intend to keep the car to 150-200,000 miles.

BTW, I use the transmission cooler lines, and let the internal pump push out the old fluid in 2-3 quart increments.
Then you add back the same amount, and continue the cycle until the fluid is clear. More difficult with the "sealed" units, since you need to either have a pump, or something like an IV line to add the fresh ATF, but doable.

 

I have a manual transmission and an older car so I don't have this problem however after researching it, I would change it every 30 to 60k miles or so using a good synthetic ATF. I watched a Youtub.e vid from Scotty Kilmer about this where he shows you exactly how to change it yourself. It isn't hard and the same allen key that opens the drain also fits into the straw (red tube) this is in the same hole but must be removed to drain it. You just measure what you took out and add the same amount of fluid. He even show you the fill plug location. Another video showed the Toyota recommended way to do it. It involves a vacuum pump to prevent drainage until you can apply your fluid pump and the ATF temperature must be within some narrow range to determine the correct amount etc. It looked like hundreds of dollars in equipment alone.

 

Hello I been wanting to get your guys opinions about this for a long time please comment . Little history I had a Older camry over 300k fluid flushed once at 100k My buddy got 97 v6 camry original trans fluid no prob same with old ford van saqua and a lexus i saw es kind also I seen subaru with cvt all original fluid 280k plus I'm sure there are many more out there untouched with high miles if its you let me know!

Now I got a 18 camry with sealed The book manual goes up to 150k and never mentions atf change says IF needed go to dealer thats it . One dealer told me to do it every 30k $$$bs the other one said never touch it like the manual says lol I'm very skeptical anyone doing job one miskate can ruin it I heard ppl had problems after service . I keep my cars for long time drive em nice so I wanna make it last . Do any of you drive high mileage cars with original ATF? Should I ever change my 8 speed at on camryf?? I feel like its best not to change it cause manual says not to and I seen many go over 300k w original fluid!!

My old mechanic says to leave it alone 4 ever many others say for long life must change regularly I cant make up my mind when the day comes please help

First why do they say "lifetime"? Simply that they do not want the vehicle to seem like it's high maintenance. They also would be happy if you purchased a new vehicle. They have been saying lifetime for years back into the days of type TIV. It's B/S. Heat is the enemy. Hard use increases heat. If it were my vehicle, I would change it at 30-50K depending on what my driving habits are and if I am planning on keeping it for over 100K. Shorter intervals-30k, for stop and go and a longer interval-50k, for mostly highway driving are what I would recommend. U series transmissions are ok but there are still issues which can crop up due to lack of maintenance. I have seen these with 40-50K and the fluid is black. Dealerships aren't supposed to recommend trans services because Toyota has forbidden it due to a class action lawsuit some years back. They only recommend schedule A or B as it reads in the owners manual. As far as you seeing some with over 300K on the original fluid, I seriously doubt it. I'd bet it had been replaced, probably more than once. BTW Subie CVT's are notorious for failure. The other vehicles you mentioned, 97 camry etc., have all had their share of transmission issues. Ford trannies are known to fail especially in vans. But hey it's your money. Do as you like. Good luck no matter what.

 

My 1988 MR2 Supercharger gear case was found to have a $40 per 1/2 cup Toyota "organic" 75w-90 installed from the factory. For the last 20 years I have used Royal Purple synthetic 75w-90 with no issues.

Any person who understands business knows that a dealer/manufacturer will want the servicing business which is where the real profit is in a dealership. Even considering this biased opinion indicates one does not understand the real world.

 

I had like 356k miles on my 2007 and never touched the trans oil. Didn’t have any issues with trans.

 

I'm around 200,000 with my 07 and have not touched it either.

 

Hello I been wanting to get your guys opinions about this for a long time please comment . Little history I had a Older camry over 300k fluid flushed once at 100k My buddy got 97 v6 camry original trans fluid no prob same with old ford van saqua and a lexus i saw es kind also I seen subaru with cvt all original fluid 280k plus I'm sure there are many more out there untouched with high miles if its you let me know!

Now I got a 18 camry with sealed The book manual goes up to 150k and never mentions atf change says IF needed go to dealer thats it . One dealer told me to do it every 30k $$$bs the other one said never touch it like the manual says lol I'm very skeptical anyone doing job one miskate can ruin it I heard ppl had problems after service . I keep my cars for long time drive em nice so I wanna make it last . Do any of you drive high mileage cars with original ATF? Should I ever change my 8 speed at on camryf?? I feel like its best not to change it cause manual says not to and I seen many go over 300k w original fluid!!

My old mechanic says to leave it alone 4 ever many others say for long life must change regularly I cant make up my mind when the day comes please help

Someone posted document from the manufacturer of these 8 speed transmissions and they recommend something like 15,000 mile fluid change,I think it was posted in this web site,very confusing.